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Serge Ramelli and Liam Douglas Talk About Starting Out as a Photographer

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Serge and Liam talk about getting started in photography and his latest projects and bundles to move you from amateur to pro!
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And I believe over 85 galleries around the world. And he is also a photography educator. So that's what we wanted to talk to him about today. How he got into doing landscape photography, how he approaches his fine art, landscape photography and the photography education part. So without further ado I'm gonna go ahead and bring surge on with me. Hey Sarah, how you doing? Well as your William. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, absolutely. I am absolutely thrilled to have you on the show. As I told you when we were talking before we started the recording for the show. I've admired your work for quite a few years now. I followed you on 500 pics and your Youtube channel. I bought some of your training from your website which is absolutely fabulous. And I didn't you? Yeah, I didn't tell you this yet, but I actually based my lightroom workflow approach on your technique. So I watched a lot of your training, I watched a lot of your Youtube videos and then I took your basic way that you edit to create my own editing style and it seems to work good for me. I always love the way you edit. You have a fantastic I well, thank you very much. I am honored. Absolutely. So, first of all, let me go ahead and have you tell my audience a little bit about yourself your background and how you got into photography. Okay. Yeah. So, um I'm french. But I do speak pretty good english because I am I when I was a teenager I lived in Los Angeles for about a year. So that and I did it right at the time when um you know when you're a teenager in your vocal cords become like a man, I have this theory that because I've had some people which are french and you know, lived in the US for 40 years and they have this bush who I am. Yes, I live been living in for 40 years in the United States, but I have a very strong french accent so I don't have that, I have it a little bit and I have this theory that, you know, when you grow up is wherever you, when you become a man, whoever you are, the language you speak is, that's that's what gets printed into your body for that life, you know, kind of thing. Anyway, so I was mixed between english and french, so that's why I am. I speak english anyways, um look, I I've always wanted to be an artist since ever I was a kid, I used to draw a lot when I was a kid, but life, I've also, I love sales and I love computers, so I got into coding very early on and then I got into sales, but I'm in love with movies, I, you know in the eighties when I saw uh I always tell that story, but this is a true story when I saw like indiana jones and Back to the Future and and and the return of the Jedi, there's three movies blew me so much away, you know, I was like 14, 15, 17 when I saw them, I was born in 1917 51. And uh I couldn't believe I couldn't believe that art because that's how I looked at it, that, you know, it just really for me it was a coming out of age movie is something I was a very introverted kid, It was, you know, seeing Michael J Fox being so cold and back to the future, like got me the idea of being cold or you know, and and the whole idea of the Space off the Rock Star Wars, I don't know, just these movies blow my mind so much. I was like, can you imagine doing this for a living where you just create art that makes people, you know, I just thought that was the coolest job on the planet, like I got to figure out a way to make art into my life, you know, my dream has always been to be a movie director and an actor, this is my background. So I started taking acting lessons, but it was very shy, so I sort of give it up and so I start the acting and went into coding complete different thing because I love computers, that's also why do tutorials because I just love technology, I'm a geek, I have like the latest, always the latest computers, you know, Pc Mac and and cameras and I love gear. Uh and so, But so that's why I got into coding and then so I did coding from the age of 18 to about 22. I'm giving you like the full background story. And then yeah, and then I went into sales. I was a salesman. I was I started selling check this out because I speak english, I started selling uh paris trip to UK agency. So I would be in paris, I would call uh agencies in like in London. So we have this great package where you're gonna stay in a leader or the moulin rouge on saturday night we have this restaurant. So it was, it was like a package that they would then sell that to the customers or companies like spend a weekend in paris. So I did that and then I did a lot of small jobs. But at the age of 28 my brother's created this incredible weight of agency called at the time 1001 promotion. And I became his cells like vice president for sales kind of thing. And so this is 1998. He had this idea which I think was a good idea at the right time to have it is To make websites in 1989 98. And mostly, so he did a survey. I remember he he did like a mailing to lawyers, hospitals, hotels, restaurants, and hotels were the ones that gave the most interest. So it's like, okay, let's make the website for hotels. So we started hiring photograph furs. Sorry, I have a dog that's a little old. So he, cause he's a little sick. That's all right. If you hear somebody coffee, that's my dog. No problem. Uh, Yes. So my wife is going to take him. Okay, good. So what? So we started hiring photograph furs. That was, this was my first, my first introduction to photography. So we hired three photograph furs because when you make a website, they said, well, we need paris photos because we're selling paris and we need good interior photos. Okay. So, so we hired photographers to take photos of paris and that, you know, at the time there was no stock photography. You couldn't buy your photo of paris, you had to shoot it yourself. So that's 1998. And so, and the company completely boom because hotels needed valley website and he became the leader in website and I started making great money. And it was, you know, it was good. But now I'm like 34 35 you know, we're 90 or 2000 and 4, 2000 and five. Making great money. I, I have a wife, we have four young teenagers Between the age of 13 and 18. So teenagers for real four, uh, you know, big house, big mortgage, two cars. But I'm like, I don't want to do this all my life. I really enjoyed it because I love talking to people. So I love the sales process and also it was great because we were very successful and he's still super strong today. That company still exists and is still a leader in in in the industry of hotels in paris. But I don't know something happened where I started getting a little depressed because I felt that my life was going to go like this and I would have never done something artistic. So I went back to acting, I started taking acting lessons. I started to uh 2004 taking acting lessons and then I started buying cameras because I wanted to make short movies But this is 2004. That means four years before the Canon five D. Mark two came out. Which was if you don't know this history of of cameras was the first camera that could shoot video. So back in 2004 you easily had like very shady you know like camcorder with tapes Or even if you like let's say you were crazy and you had money, you had like the canon 8-8 whatever it's called. It was like an $8,000 camera that also worked on tape and that's like that's worth what an iPhone can do today. It was not great you know or you had a Panasonic anyways You know it was very expensive to short short movies because it looked ridiculous. I tried on camp quarters and it just was so bad. So you had to rain like $8,000 camera to get a result. The lines were not great. You couldn't, you couldn't get a shallow depth of field. So you ended up having a bad image for a very expensive rental. The only thing that was like if you really wanted something nice was like film, you know with like Big Sin and Lance and you were talking $100,000 camera and it was a big problem. That's why the five D. Mark. It was such a revelation for people because you could get cinema quality video for nothing. I mean just with your own gear and that was the first time. But This is four years before. So here I am trying to make short movies and I'm failing at it completely. I remember I shot a short movie where where I was like um I've read this creep where I'm like this crazy real estate agent who uh is very theatrical and both women have to miss you and trying to show around a place for people to buy and like making uh and it just didn't come out right. And I uh also the acting lessons I was taking, I went to specific theater school and the teacher was a complete failed actor meaning in a way that he never got big gigs in the business and he was very like the business is bad, the business is hard, the business like not inspiring at all. Like, you know, he had great techniques for teaching acting, but he was like, you're never gonna make it kind of guy. I was like, thank you very much, you know, it's not the kind of, you know, very inspiring kind of thing. So Then I started getting really despaired because acting was going nowhere. Uh short movie was going nowhere and something happened that changed my life forever. In January 2004 or five, I forgot which year I went on vacation with a whole bunch of friends to the West Loop. Um I just did a big real estate, I bought like a big thing with my money. I did like a big real estate investment and and the real estate company because it was a big money investment offered us a weakened Guadalupe. So we're like 10 friends who bought like it was like a whole village that we bought, it was like a tax credit vestment which turned out to be really bad. That's a whole different story. And at the time the real estate agency gave us money to spend a week in guadeloupe. I had never been to the Caribbean island. So I went there and I brought this little Sony camera, I had like a very small Sony camera and I started taking photos of you know the trip and we had a pretty beautiful girl with us and we took a photo of her. And uh and I had a buddy of mine. So one of, one of my best buddy killed in pima was a designer in my company. So he was the master of Photoshop. And then one afternoon he was like, oh do you want me to show you Photoshop? Because you took some photos that girl. So he takes in the photo and he says you know how can he raise a tourist and I can make this guy better, I can make a skin browner and I can put a title. And he started making like starts showing me and I was just amazed. But it gave me a huge realization which is that because the biggest problem I had was making short movies is you need actors, you need to set, you need money, you need, you need so many things to make something happen. And I was like I'm in paris. I work in a nice area of paris because hotels are in a nice area and with Photoshop I didn't know what lightroom was at the time with Photoshop and a camera, I can at least create create something which are photos like you know it was like okay until I can figure out this movie making stuff, I can at least take photos. And and I was like, would you teach me Photoshop says yeah sure. I'll teach you Photoshop. So I came back to paris. I remember I went into the first library I couldn't find I but all the books I could find like I didn't know what row files was or anything. I knew nothing. Any of that shot of speed shot uh you know shutter speed or iso or actually nothing. All I knew is that with a camera and Photoshop could create anything that I knew. So I started buying books and and I started buying books and I bought the Cannon us 3 50 D. Which was like the high end entry price scandal. Like today is the rebel which in europe the way Cannon does things to give a letter, it's like 3 54 155 105 156 100 in the U. S. It's called Canon T. Two. I but they don't know why it's like that. But Anyway so it's the equivalent of current situation, it's a $400 camera with a 1740 and I started taking lots of photos and started doing some learning trying to learn Photoshop and that's how I started. Amazing. Yeah and I understand exactly where you're coming from. It's funny because you and I are the exact same age. I was born in November 8, 1970. So I'll be 51 in a couple of weeks here. Um but yeah I'm actually younger. I'm actually a few months older than you. I was born in 13 of May 1970. Okay so you got me beat by a little bit. Um but I mean that's a great background story and yours is very similar to mine because I first started playing with the camera. I had an uncle give me a camera when I was real little um that I played around with, I think it was one of the old Kodak 1, 10 instamatic or something like that. And later I played around with Polaroids and then eventually I moved up to point and shoot fuji's and and then eventually settled on Canon. And uh, I did the same thing. I bought books on Photoshop so I could try to make my images look better, you know, post processing and all that good stuff. And so our stories are very similar as far as how we both got started in photography to an extent. Um now, just out of curiosity, who were some of the photographers that inspired you if there were any or did you just go, yeah, we're at the beginning. So here we are, 2005. I'm trying to learn Photoshop. And so I'm like, googling anything Photoshop related. I bought eight books on Photoshop and there's no joke. Um, and I remember buying this book called adobe in the classroom, which honestly I hated because the way they made the book back in 2005. I know how this now, but back in 2000 and five, they would literally go like, okay, this is what all the filters do in Photoshop they will like, it was kind of like a manual of everything that Photoshop could do, which is a really bad way to learn. And then I found this book called, I found two books, one uh Photoshop visual, which was the challenge of the book was to show you Photoshop without one. There was no tax, it was just visual, it was just print, screen's amazing. But it was very limited was like how do you raise something? How do you add a cloud? You know, it was very like, you know, but it was great because that's what I needed. And then I found a man that changed my life forever. His name is Scott Kelby. I bought Photoshop a photograph for back in 2005 from Scott Kelby and I heard about something called the N A. P. P National Association of Professional and I became a member and I started watching Photoshop. So that was my first inspiration with Scott Kelby and he started doing this podcast 2000 and six or seven called the Photoshop guys. And uh they started believe it as a podcast without video and then it turned into video. I watched it from the first episodes and that was like, I mean at the time I was big time into TV show like Jack Bauer 24 hours. But when Photoshop guys would come on this would take the priority over any TV show on the planet. Like I was so passionate. I don't know I went from not nothing like having no interest about photography when I met this realization that you see and this is I think this is important for any artist out there Is you got to figure out, Okay, you want to make a science fiction movie but you don't have a dime. What can you do now? What can you create with the resource that you have and what I could create with the research that I have was taking photos. What reasons did I have? I could pay, I have $400 for you know can only have 350 and I have Paris. And I bought Photoshop, I didn't steal it was $800. That was more, Photoshop cost me twice more than the camera at the time. And uh because I didn't want to steal the software, although I still, I think I used to copy software for a few weeks and I felt bad and I bought it because I was making good money so there's no reason to steal it anyway. So I bought Photoshop this and then I why should I choose to be told the first year I was not watching tutorial the first two years and I was almost gave up because my photography was not really moving well. And then I found scott Kelby and that was my first inspiration and he was doing the show with Corey barker in Moskovsky and uh the Canadian guy, I forgot his name, Bold Guy. I forgot his name is going to come back to me. Anyways. So that really inspired because it was and that's when I discovered Lightroom. They started showing lightroom. I was like, what's lightroom? And like at first I was like using Bridge in Photoshop and I didn't know what the big deal was about. Lightroom. And then once I understood because my biggest issue was photo management. Like I do you know where to put my photos. I was taking so much like how to organize them. I kept losing photos all the time because I was very, I'm a very disorganized person and Lightroom was because like Bridge and Ceo at the time was the exact same thing like him except Lightroom at the library where you could find your photo with, you know, command f you could, you know, tag them as you import them. Lightroom changed my the way I organized my life around photography. So that was a good move to move to lightroom. I felt in love with lightroom. So scott was my first inspiration. So then I started looking for other people. I think my second inspiration. Oh, there was a girl, I forgot her name. I remember she was like north Carolina, like where you live. She uh and she was taking photos of her hometown and she lives like in a farmer's life and and she had this over the top saturated photos but I love them at the time. She was a great photograph. I can't forget but remember she was a big inspiration and then I remember watching a magazine showing HDR and that's like 2000 and 7, 2000 and eight and they mentioned somebody named Trey Ratcliff and then I started following Trey Ratcliff. He was doing this over the top HDR but I loved it. I don't like it so much today. I still love trade but I went to a more natural workflow today but at the time I got like you know it's like kid you give him a toy is going to play with it for a few months and then might give it up. That's how I was with you except I played for years and I got into HDR photography big time. So Trey Ratcliff was a huge inspiration. Uh So I was just playing around, you know, I was 96 I was VP salesman and after six I would if that's a good thing because I had my 3 50 D. Was a big man photo tripod into my scooter and if there was a good light I would stick around and take photos and I would retouch them then I would wash scott or trade cultural and then I would do that and I would repeat, repeat, repeat and I was at first I was like super bowl retouch and as the years progress, I learned to um, well, something else happened, it doesn't end. That totally changed. A new kid in the block came in. A new mentor in my life named Peter lik, which I'm sure, you know, which was a revelation to me for many reasons. Um, but yeah, so scott trey Ratcliff was my first big guys. Later on, I met jointly crimes and Peter lik and they had, you know, and I also studied the history of photography. Like Ansel Adams was a huge inspiration. Um, there was an high quality bryson was, I love how he does. It's a french guy who the street photography. I don't just read photography, but I love, I learned a lot about composition through him. I study also nick Brandt uh, jean Michel birds, incredible black and white photo for early these days were big inspirations to me. Oh, fabulous. I love black and white photography. I still do it today. I have this rule. If the color is not good, don't try to put it back in, just go black and white. That's kind of, I'm going to do t shirt. No good colors go black and white. Absolutely. I, I feel the same way and I frequently do that. I love to do street photography. Um, it's one of the genres that I really enjoy. Um, but you are just absolutely amazing at your landscape photography. I mean, your work just blows me away. And of course, there will be links in the show notes to your websites and stuff like that. And if you could, it's up to you. If you'd be kind enough, maybe we'll, we'll put a three or four of your images in the show notes. Um, Oh yeah, for sure. I'll give you anything you want. I really love drills, photograph, anything. I can help. Awesome. Uh, that most recent youtube video years that I watched where you were comparing Lightroom classics, aluminum ai I absolutely love that Milky Way shot. That would be a great one to put in the show notes if you don't mind. Oh yeah, sure, Absolutely. All right. Um, yeah. So just to tell you the peter leak story. So now we're at 2010, it's been five years. I'm taking photos. I over processed my photo a lot. Every time I show my photos, somebody they say, wow, it's beautiful. You do something to it as the first emotional reaction. And I hated that. I hated that because it was the attention was on the retouching and not on the subject. And I hated that. I hated that kind of reaction. Like, oh, but if you do something to it as like the first, like literally anybody with my fellow that was the first reaction. And uh, 2010. So now I got a good body of work of a lot of over retouched photo Paris. I go to Photoshop world for the first time. I am so excited. It's uh my first time back in the usa since many years never been to Vegas. I go to Photoshop world as a student so that's 11 years ago and I'm going to see Scott Kelby for the first time that I've been now watching for five years and I am excited. Like somebody going to a Michael Jackson concert. Uh so love Photoshop world and I find this gallery, peter lik which somebody just hadn't mentioned his name a few months before a surgeon. I was working with what I did some photos, I was like oh I love to have some peter like photos but like there are $8000 apiece and it's a bit expensive and he was a very rich man. It was like $8000 for a photo really. Anyway, so I walk into Vegas, you, have you been to Vegas? Have you seen his Mandela Bay gallery? So I go into this huge gathering man, it must be like $30,000 months rent. You know uh and then I mean the Mandalay Bay has like a huge Peter league photo like right at the check in, you know and then you go up the stairs to go to the casino or whatever and you come to his gallery which is huge and the photos are like just breathtaking. I know there's controversy about the guy. I don't know why there is controversy. I think he's one of the greatest photograph for that ever lived. That's what I think Uh he is I mean I've studied, I have all these books I've seen over 200 his piece the masterpieces. The guy is just he blows me away like more than anybody. And so I spent hours in his gallery and I was listening to what people were saying and they were all like, what a beautiful beach, what a beautiful mountains. What a beautiful you know uh photo of new york. Nobody said anything about Photoshop. Although I'm sure he Photoshop, but I was like, that was a puzzle to me. Why does people react to me? Like, oh did you do something to your photo? And when you see Peter link there, like what a beautiful beach. And it hit me hard check this out. Peter link we touched his photo a lot, but he we touched them. Sometimes you went over like I know there's this whole story about the moon and the tree. That's okay fine. Maybe not that one, but most of his work, he he does very saturday to work. Like it's extremely saturated. But it and listen to this, it's at the threshold of human experience. What I mean by that is if you I live in florida. I have an incredible west view. So I see some of the most incredible sunset this plant has to offer and when it gets red it gets red more red than you t shirt it gets so red. So there's nothing wrong with saturation. That's not the problem. Here's the problem. The problem is the you it's not the saturation most photos. Well sometimes it is saturation is he gets his color right? The the orange is the real orange from planet Earth, it's super saturated. It's at the limit of human experience, but it's not something you would find on mars or jupiter or in a science fiction movie, it's he takes you to the utmost of what you can experience. That that that that date also is something to take into consideration. It's our man, remember in the seventies in 1981 we got our first color tv and I was 11 years old. We went from a black and white tv to color tv. And I really thought the colors look fake to me because I've never seen, I've never seen a color tv. You know, and so when somebody can hit a sunset and and and we touch it in a way that it looks really real like super realistic people can do, they can know a little bit with their iphone but what I mean is people are not used to see good saturated photo that really that really shows reality of how crazy that song that was. It can look fake but it's not the fact that he just masters so much his gear and his retouching that he was able to portrait what real life sunset looks like and I feel that's what what he did. I would say 90 some of it. No there is sometimes he went overboard like some of his blues sometimes are a little too saturated like on you know on beach scene and stuff like that. But most of the time and I was like and because at the time I was crazy about magenta, I would add a lot of magenta in my skies and they just didn't look like planet Earth styles. Guys they look like. So that was the big thing. So I went from trey Ratcliff to peter leak. So I went from stopping to do HDR you're like okay I'm gonna go at the threshold of human experience. I'm gonna go get the most crazy sunset. I'm gonna retouch it and it's going to look like how it how I remember it and not a percentage further but not a percentage back because I felt that's what he was doing. And I started this search of how can you portrait, how do you do it? You A G. Are do you under you know do you under do you under expose it? How do you make when you see one of the great sunset because I didn't want to seal wet sunset. What I mean by silhouette sunset. Did you underexposed? Everything in the foreground is black and you get a great sunset. No no no no, no that's not how the human I see things I wanted to see, I wanted to portray sunset like the human eyes. So first I did bracketing you know, underexposed overexposed and then I started getting the Sony cameras and getting it right in the camera on one row file and that was later on. That was years later. Anyway, it's been a quest to me to show the world what the sunset looks like and and I don't want it to over retouch it. I sometimes I I can't make it. So when I see people taking like uh you know a photo at night and there is no such thing as overcast sky and it looked like a big circle of the big magenta color and it looks completely fake. I'm totally against that. I said no go black and white. Don't try to, don't try to put in colors that were not there. You can try to get the colors that were there to come out, but don't try to add colors that were not there. Go black and white if you've got a great field position, you know, so uh Peter Link was a huge influence in my life right around that time, but I still had a great body of HDR work and and then there's this whole story of the high quit my job and went into a fine art which is kind of amazing. But it's a whole different story that was right after actually. Yeah, that's a great story though. And Peter lik was an inspiration for myself as well. I hadn't heard anything about a controversy with him and I tend to ignore stuff like that because you never know if it's real or fake. Um but Ansel Adams was a huge inspiration for me. Trey Radcliffe scott Kelby. All fantastic photographers, extremely talented, but they're not the only ones. And that's why you're here today. Because like I said, it's not just me, a lot of photographers I know absolutely love your work, admire your work and how you do things, you get amazing results. As a matter of fact, when I was getting my Bachelor's and Digital Photography a few years back, pretty much every professor I had knew you knew you're working. Yeah. And so I wasn't afraid to tell them if I had to do an essay style assignment or something like that. Hey, my inspirations are surge. Chase, Jarvis, Ansel Adams. Peter lake. Yeah, because you well, you guys are all, I'm happy to be in that group. So, um so in addition to doing your landscape photography, how did you get into the portion that you're doing a lot of now, which is educating other people on how to do photography and editing. So yeah, that's a funny story. Um how can I tell this story in a way that's so okay, um to to uh well, I'll tell the whole story, go for it. So, 2008, uh 2008. I am so addicted to photography. I'm like this is what I want to do in life like that. I can't stay as a vice person for cells not possible. I gotta go and find a way to become a full time photographer. It was hitting me at night. That's the only thing I could think of. I was buying more books watching multiple second more photos. I mean I, I went in like, it was like a revelation to me like it was, I wanted this to be my life. And so I went to my brother. I said, look, I've got a problem. I really want to be a photograph for, you know, and you know, but the problem is, you know, I got four young kids, I need €10,000 but most anticipated the bills and you know, you mentioned something about selling your company and he had this plan, he wants to sell a company and giving a big chunk of money is like Phase over just because I needed €10,000. You know, I bought this big mortgage for the four kids, six people you know to cars and all that good stuff. You know how that goes and, and, and France is expensive and so um, and he said, you know what, let's make a deal. So that's, that's actually uh, sorry, that's 2007 or something. He said stay one more year with me and uh, and then uh by then I'll have the company sold and then you can do whatever you want. So then I am and then I waited another year and then a year later he said, look, uh you know, I had a few buyers but didn't work out. I decided not to sell. So I'm sorry, you gotta figure something out that was like, And that was made 2008. So I said, you know what? Fuck it sorry for the bad word, I'm just gonna sell my house. So I have enough money to become a photograph of a photograph for. And I talked to my wife says, you know, we, we've had the house for a few years but the market was going up so I was like, okay, we can make, you know, I can have about one or two years of money aside and I can become a full of fun. And my wife was like super supportive, like, you know, even if we have to live in a smaller place, if you can make your dream come true, I'll help you. So, but that was main june 2000 and eight and we're like, okay, well let's do it in september when we come back from vacation, we had a big vacation plan with the kids, we come back in september and september 2000 and eight. Uh I don't if you remember this was the biggest real estate crash in the last, you know since 1994 since the gulf war and I put the house on the market. I didn't think it was such a big deal and it just doesn't go and it just doesn't go and nothing happens. And I was like I went back to see my brother is going to sell the company and I'm not going to sell the company and I felt trapped and I felt like I had no way out and then it hit me. I was like it hit me, I was like oh but I got a good you know at the time so you have to understand that I work with hotels and I now have a lot of very wealthy friends that have like some guy have like 10 hotels in paris and they're like and they are, all they care about is how to decorate the hotel and how to have nice paris photos. So I went to see some of my best buddies at the time, very rich people and I said look uh what if because you know it was a tax write off like they were doing millions of dollars of renovations and for them you know if I could decorate the whole hotel with my photos. You know it would I said look if you buy me $100,000 worth of photograph the or like there was one guy yet uh I said look buy me $1000 a photo for $1000 it's going to cost me $200 to produce. So I'm gonna make 800 profit. You can write it off you know for you think, but you will help me become a professional photograph which is my life dream and this is hard. So I went to see one guy start with this one guy, I remember all my life Michelle. So he had to hotels to over like he had a small 1 30 for another 1 45 rooms. And I went because he was writing in the small one and I basically I was asking for €35,000 like $40,000 of photos and that was kind of an idea I had and he called me up two days after he says you know I thought about it and you know I can't just do one hotel. I got two hotels, I love what you do, I want to back you up, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna give you $85,000 that's amazing. And uh and so he bought $85,000 of photos and then two other guys, I end up saying $150,000 in photos literally in four days. I was like, oh my God, okay so now I have the money. So I went and I went to my brother and I did a resignation letter says sorry, I'm going to become a full time photographer. And and so I, so I had all this money, but at the time I hooked up with some pretty bad people, which I didn't expect. So I met these guys, one guy was a director and another guy with a screenwriter, very extremely talented people I must say, but not very honest to me at least. Uh, and they, I, as I told you I did not working for web agency, I knew a lot of wealthy people and they had this movie's great scrip. They wanted me to help raise money for. And uh, so I was about to become a movie producer, which I didn't really have interest for like movie production is not really my thing and more I want to be behind the camera. I'm good with money. I know a lot of people have money. I can raise money, but it's not like I just, you know, I just quit my job because I wanted to be an artist. So I started taking photos of hotels. Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you that. But as my customers, you see my parents will not only they bought somebody also wanted me to take photos of the hotel. So I started doing that. But I was making a lot less money than just being a vice president for cells to give you an idea as a country. So I, so I gave my resignation, I had somebody set aside but I still, you know, needed some money. So I was thinking about five grand amounts doing interior design, photography, Which was half of what I was making. So I was eating up my set asides, you know my reserve. You know, I said I gotta find because I needed 10,000. So I had a way I need to find a way to, you know, make this. So I was like so I got into this movie production and what's stupid about movie production in that it takes about two years to fundraise to make the movie and the movie has to be said, then you can mean so, so I had to do the interior design photography and uh, and the movie production, but I made a deal with these guys, which was that um, I made a deal with these guys that uh, if I raised the money for the movies, there was one script. I really love the road that they would let me direct that movie and play the lead part. It was a comedy, Uh, which I really wanted to do. And they were like, yeah, no problem, no problem. But first we want you to raise somebody for mine. So it was a man and his son and they wanted me to raise the money for her son, one of the sons movie 1st. And so I started doing that. I knew nothing about movie production, but you know, I was a salesman. I actually went to school, There was a private school costs a fortune to become a movie producer. I paid for it. I went to school it was not as cool but it was like uh private teaching but it was like with the studios you would actually go in toxic. It was great. And so I learned that and then I so start doing that. But my set aside was just then we had some issue with our house and we to make donations and the money I had set aside was just I was literally um how do you say uh just like melting. It was melting And something else. I've been to change my life forever. So now we're in 2000 no to 711 Christmas 2011. I'm almost running out of money. The movie production thing is not going really well and I'm you know and a lot of people are writing me saying how do you do these photos like can you teach us? And and I found this website called Tuto dot com. T ut oh dot com. And they said because I was really desperate for money and they said you can sell you tutorials will give you half of the money. So it's french tutorial. So I started doing some lightroom tutorials and they started like being the best setting two girls on the whole platform. I was like what? So like oh maybe I have a talent for this, you know but I had this idea and this is a lot of people, a lot of artists have this idea and I had this idea that if I I gotta go holding on movie production like I knew I could make money with tutorials and I could make money with with interior design if I put more time into it. But I had this idea that it was a do or die attempt, I was going to be a movie producer, I was going to produce that movie and then I was going to direct a second one and that that was my life so all my energy and attention and I had this idea that if you have too many incomes for us or you too many disperse that it's not gonna work like the only way to make it the big time is to fully commit but I was kind of a crazy thought because I got four young teenagers needed all that money and it was not a good move And Christmas 2010 I read the steve jobs biography and this book changed my life for real. I remember I was bored for Christmas we went to some family which I didn't really know and I just bought the book and I was sitting in the corner and I read the book like it's a big book, I read it like in two days like almost 16 hours straight and what the story in that book that changed my life and here's the story Steve job in 1984 cells. Like gets really upset with this guy from Pepsi that he put over to run apple. They get into a fight. He says fuck you sells his share and just sell his here and now he's got like $280 million dollars uh you know and on this bank account and uh you know 1984, million million. Can you imagine how much money it is? Right, a lot of money. And so he has this idea, he uh he has this idea where He uh he buys his computer called the Pixar from George Lucas. And he has and he hires 50 salesmen To try to sell this computer to hospital and two studios not so much mostly for hospital 50 salesmen and nobody wants to buy this computer because for computer graphics at the time there was something called the silicon graphics which was half the price and did a great job. And and then he has this guy who is not the head of picture like I love how they tell the story in the book where he's like just playing around with a computer making like a little short movie like just playing with a small character. And steve Javie is passing by in the corridor and says what is that? And I said, you know I'm just making a you know a little cartoon with the computers. You know, we're not selling them. But I can play around with him. He's like, oh, I love that. Okay, I'll finance short. Like how much money do you need? I want a full charge on movie. They do the short. The short wins an Oscar I think. Yeah, I think it's an Oscar and, and then he's like there is a business there and then then he talks and then he and the guy says, you have an idea is called for a movie based on the show is called toe story. And so Steve job goes to see the head of all this need they co produced police story and for $25 million $500 million 50 settlements is now we're making movies. I like they change the purpose of the company and now they're making movies and a lot of people don't know this. But when steve jobs passed away, he was worth $11 billion. Only $1 billion. Only $1 billion came from apple 10 10 came from the deal. He maybe it's a long story. You should read the book, but he ends up, you know, selling pick surface for a ridiculous amount of money of shares of Disney group. And this guy. So in short becomes the most wealthy producer in history. And I'm like, so, okay, so this guy has got $284 million dollars and becomes the most wealthy producer in history and pass away with this fortune. So this and he had like multiple businesses. So this whole idea had that you have to focus door die in the attempt. It's not good to have different income source. I was like, this is bullshit. You know, he you know, I could have different incomes so it's not because you've got different, you know, it's stupid. But I was really dying financially because I was we had a big problem with the house and I was almost running out of money. So bad that I was about, I was a few months away and not being able to pay my house and by reading this book, it was like obvious that that was not gonna make it financially. So I I went to see my partner says, look, I got to invest more time in making tutorials on this platform, the because I need the money. And so I did. And I started, you know, I said, you know, I will produce the movie, but I'm gonna go on a part time basis. I'm going to go all in on that and I became the number one author on the platform. I was like ah and it was only french speaking stuff and and then So now I was making more money. I was making €10,000 a month with that platform being the number one seller of tutorials plus I was making $5000 doing real estate photography. So now I was making €15,000. Uh, but I had a lot of renovations to pay and I need money. But I was making more money than I was making as a salesman. So that's kind of cool. You know? Uh, and then one thing led to another. Um, the, I'm telling you the full story because you know, you say, yes, I love to talk about this stuff, you know? Yeah, hire somebody else to become an artist. I'm happy about it. And then, um, and then something else happened. This is how I started my Youtube channel. I, so I almost got the first movie produced and then I had this discussion with my partners. And this is when I discovered that they were not in for the right reason that says, you know, we do not want you to direct this movie because now the deal was like, okay, now I find this the first one, the second one is mine. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna finance it. I'm gonna direct it. I'm going to play the lead. No, like, no, no, no, we want you to do another movie. So it was like, that's the 23 years before then I realized they were, they had no belief in me as an actor. They had no ability to me as a director. They could eventually believe that could raise money. Didn't even think it was that good. And the truth is I was not that good and this relationship was going nowhere. That kind of stole money from me. Also, in a way I was like, this is not a healthy relationship. And uh, I was, I remember I was writing back home, I was crying on my motorbike. I was like, I just wasted 2.5 years of my life with them. Uh, you know, they're not going to back me up. I'm not gonna be, they're not going to give me that movie and what can I do? What can I do? What can I do? I was like, well, I'm doing all this french Joel. I speak good english, why don't I do a youtube channel first? I want to do Youtube channel about comedy. I was like a comedy. I'm not sure I can pull that off. But what, what, what if let's do a youtube channel? So that's 2012 or something. I, and I, and I said, because I have no idea how I could sell tutorials because tutor dot com was like a platform. They invested a lot of money as they would be great money, but like how do I sell tutorials in english? I have no idea. So I said, I'm going to make them for free on youtube, which is what I did for the first year and I did a whole bunch of and my youtube channel blew up like SpaceX blew up. Like I, I started getting 300,000 views on my first videos. And, and then something crazy happened. Um, uh college contacted me actually, uh, the uh, it's called, it's like a private web master is called the Da Vinci Schools, the biggest Westminster where master is cool in France. 2000 students right outside of paris in a business area. And they contacted me, said, we saw your Youtube channel, we love what you do. We have a, but you don't have a website to sell you tutorials, you're doing, give me everything for free. We have six students. They can help you build a website, they'll help you build a website to um, to sell your, your, your, you know, you should make, you should sell your soul, you shouldn't give everything for free. So they gave me six students for about six months. They build me a website. They beat me like a shop online and everything. two. And I started making longer course that I was going to sell and one day I found out something I don't want to go into it. But something really bad that my partners did. And I said, okay, I'm out of here. Like this was the end. And I sent him a letter saying, you know, this is it, I'm setting my Sheriff's, I don't wanna have anything to do with you guys anymore. And then that was on monday and on Wednesday the school posted um this tutorial and this is the new website and I've just done a new tutorial and the shells. It was unbelievable the first month it was like more money than I could ever dream of and I was like what? And uh I had no idea you could make money with tutorial. So and so now I had the french tutorials do really well the english material right after that. Uh My house had a big problem so I had to spend a lot of money in my house which was a blessing and run around that time another miracle happened. I got the book deal and I got the yellow corner deal which was a lot of money even more than two girls. Uh So basically you know I I left my job the first two years I almost died. It was really rough because wrong partnership, very important who your partner was. But when I went back on track on doing my own thing my life exploded like really explode tonight. I made so much more. So much money that I moved to the U. S. Because the tax was so crazy in France like I started making $100,000 tutorials. $100,000 to yellow corner deal. $50,000 of books. Uh You know plus the inter design. I mean it was just like money was just coming from everywhere. I was like what is this? I never had made big money in my life you know? and tax office took 85% of that. So that's why I moved to the U. S. The second year. I was like no I'm not giving 85% of all more more royalties to that. And uh the first time I'm being so much open on this. But you know I went from almost losing my house and my house with his people to uh you know to really have a financial, you know then later on the first year was amazing with the galleries and you know it was less than years after. So you have to work. But it was it was nice to to see that it was nice to see that you know and that's what I said to people like if you have something you love to you got to find bright ideas to monetize to be able to just do it as a living. So the french website was a good idea. You know the school and and honestly I have this belief that when you do what you like you like as a big part of it. Like this school was such a lot thing and the biggest look was hard going into the galleries that was like look after look after. Like I felt I won the lottery that year. It was crazy. Yeah I got a story after because it was even more of a miracle. But in short, when you do what you like, and you feel good about it, it makes you so high in energy so happy. And when you're happy, the universe folds for you, that's what I've observed, like, you know, anyway, it just falls like, you know, it's like this book called The Secret or whatever. You know, when you picture, I was so happy being a photograph for, I mean, I had this two years, we didn't mess up. But when, when I, you know, when I went away from these people and I said, okay, this is what I want. It. Just miracle after miracle happened. The three main miracle, number one was a school. They, when they put out the website, I had no idea the website was gonna make any money. It did. And then a few months after, uh, there's a big miracle that I'll tell you after on the gallery, right? Yeah. So, uh, that's a heck of a story and it's a great story. And um, I can definitely relate, you know, I've been in similar situations to you. My wife and I have five kids, luckily they're all grown up now, but of course now we have 11 grandkids. So, wow, yeah, keeps us busy. I don't have a grand kid yet, I'm your agent, I don't have one grand kid, I'm hoping to get one very soon. This too. two girls playing the game, you gotta, you gotta tell your kids chop chop. Dad wants a grandchild. That's what I believe me, I'm doing that. So the next question I have for you and I don't ask this for any particular positive or negative reason. It's more of a curiosity thing because I always tell my listeners, it doesn't matter what camera system you go with, they all make amazing images. But what is the current system that you're using and why did you decide to go with that system? Okay, so I uh well right now I'm using the Fuji 100 S. It's a 102 million pixel camera. Why? Because it's the best camera in the world. Hands down. I think it's even better than was, I think it's better than the phase one for what I do is better than a phase one. And and even the hustle black uh from the research that I did, I think it really for what I do is the best camera in the world. And what I do is Cityscape and landscape. Um I was originally cannon shifted uh to Sony because I love muralists. So I had the Sunni Sunni 123. I still have the Sony A seven R. Three, which almost don't use, I almost don't use it anymore. I use the Sunni at 7434 shooting videos. Um what happened is so I was with the Sony, I was very happy with the Sunni and a friend of mine. But the food G 50 million pixel back about a year ago before I was and we went and took some photos together. Uh That was just before I move of the Griffith park in Los Angeles where you have in downtown in the background so it's very far away. And he gave me the role files and I compared them in lightroom using the compare mode to see how sharp the background was and the colors. And it was like that night I was like what? So and this was the night before was about flying to France for a big shoot so about the G. F. 50 R. With a medium format camera from Fuji With with one lance. And I have not been able to go back to Sony ever since. So I've been shooting that. And then the 100 S came out so the Fuji was $4000. But I got a deal from the semis camera in L. A. And I got $3000. And and then the 100. The problem is I was not there was no in body stabilization that was really a bomber. And the only in body stabilization they had was the 100 million pixel camera. But that was $10,000. I don't want to put $10,000 into a camera. And then they came up with the S version at $6000 which I ended up getting an incredible leader at almost $4000 believe it or not. So that's why I uh I that's what I use now. I do take the study with me. But the truth is I'm I love so much the quality of that 100 million pixel camera that I don't shoot son anymore. It just, it's like nothing beats that in terms of color dynamic range, the color, the color signs of fuji is amazing. So I'm just a new fuji lover. Yeah, I can understand that and it's you're gonna think I'm crazy. But it's absolutely nuts because I've been off and on, I've I've gone back and forth between Canon and fuji. Um I've been with Cannon for a while now and I was in a similar situation to you when I started working on my documentary project in Georgia, I was like okay my Canon is a really good camera. I had the five DSR 50 megapixels and I was like this is a great camera for these buildings but I really want medium format. I want it so bad, I can taste it. And I was looking at used Phase one systems and in a couple of other systems and I considered Pentax and Then I heard about the Fujifilm g. f. x 50 r. And I was like oh my God, it's a range finder style camera which I love that old style design. It's 50 megapixels medium format, massive dynamic range and so I got rid of all my Canon DSLR but I still have my Canon meritless gear. But wait so you you have the 50 G fix. Yeah, wow. Yeah. And I'm so jealous because you've got the 100 s. And I've been wanting that camera so you gotta put me in touch with your source that can get it for four grand. I'll tell the story of how I got it. It's funny but I was in paris paris camera is always is always more expensive. And uh and I go to that there is a the equivalent of best buy in paris is called the snack. It's uh and so I'm walking into the space and and the camera guy in one of the biggest story in paris comes to me says oh my God I'm a huge fan. I've been watching your Youtube channel for seven years. I don't believe you're here. It was like he was a big fan. I was like all right. And I'm like oh yeah I am. I want to buy the fuji 100 but I'll buy it in the U. S. Because it was it was €6000. So right there is like $7000 right? But it was with the 80. But it was like you know I'm a fan, I'm gonna give you 10% and you know that you can get the V. T. Off. I was like what? So I was getting 20% VT off. So check this out. €7000. So sorry €6000 minus uh 1200 of beauty. So it was 4800 euros. And then he was giving me 10% off of that. So it was €4000. So it ended up being like $5000 instead of 6700. So I was like I mean it was crazy. So because there's this law if you buy stuff in in in France and you you have a green card or your resident you can get video off at the airport which I did. So that's how I got the 100 S. And I am in love because the n body simulation like I hate to shoot with a tripod. And I've been taking photos without a tripod like all the way to the night Like at 100 years ago maybe 200 ISO. And it's just it's incredible. It's and and and and and the prince you get 102 million pixel, the detail, the color science. It's I think for landscape Seascape it's the best camera in the world and it's like $6000 with the lances. I have 34 64. It's a zoom 6 30 to 64 Which is the equivalent of 25. Yeah 55. So it's sometimes I'm not white enough but you don't want to do I just take 34 photos and I stitch them and I find I get better result when I do see the escape of of doing panoramic views like 1234 than doing a wide angle cause wide angle does too much distortion. That tree is gonna look so big. The beach is gonna be so small. We're taking four photos, you get less distortion, you get more pixel, you know, so when I have an incredible scene like I have this incredible something about the right time in the right place, I only have one lands one camera and if I'm not white enough I just take four photos and I'm good. Oh that's amazing. Yeah. When I went to the G. F. X 50 R. I wanted it for my documentary project and I started out, you know, I traded in some of my gear, I got the G. F. X 50 are with their 50 millimeter lens. Um I really wanted their 2023 millimeter but that one was just stupid expensive. And so I ended up going to la Jolla first. So I went to venus optics and I got there 17 millimeter G. FX MT manual lens and it was a really good lens but it would get issues with really severe lens flaring if the sun was too bright. It didn't have a hood, there was no way to put a hood on it. And so I just saved up and saved up and then I finally sold the LAo off and I actually got the G F 23 millimeter for my, for my documentary Work. And so you have to 23 and 50, Yep, I've got the 23 and the 50 and I'm hoping to get the new 35-70 that just came out. That once got me intrigued as well. Yeah. Yeah, that would be cool. I was trying to get a 70 Uh to 1:50 or something. They have uh, it was coming out of stock last time I tried to buy it, I need to buy it actually before I go to Paris, I'm going to Paris in two weeks for shooting a movie. That's a whole different story. Oh, highlight of the tv show more exactly. But anyway, um, so yeah, I'm with you on that G FX Fuji, I felt in love. Yeah, I mean they're film simulations are insane. I mean when I started photography, you know, like we were talking about before the show, I started in film and that was one of the reasons why I love shooting with fuji was I loved their film stock and the fact that they can replicate them so accurately and their cameras is amazing. Yeah. So this is a velvet 50 film actual film because I shoot film also, I've got to film about four uh got the Hasselblad, 503 Cw of the Mamiya seven too. And I like to play one with medium format and I love fuji Velveeta 50 and 100. So it's an actual film From 20 years ago and uh, you know how it is there val via simulation and their pro via simulation in Fuji is so incredible. This is when you realize also like people say like, Oh, because that film I've been using a lot is so oversaturated. It's like, it gives a lot of magenta castles. Like this is where my love of magenta comes from, From fuji bell via. That's where it comes from. Absolutely. Like I said, they do a fantastic job of replicating them in there. Yeah, I love Yeah, the large, probably a and Velveeta is the two. I use most of time. Sometimes a little too much. I like decelerate on top of using the lot, but I'm with you on that. Yeah. A lot of people don't know that when you light them, if you go to camera, what is it camera, uh, there's a section on the lot scope, which is basically changes for every war file. So if you have a camera profile is going to give you lots that were created by cannon. If you have a Sony is gonna give you lots created by Sony. And so if you have a fuji you get lots created by uh, hold on, I mean in lightroom now it's called. So you have to go to lots and it's called camera matching. That's the name of looking for camera matching. And so when you use a fuji, they have the best lots and way better than any other brain, Way better. And well the big thing that I've discovered, I don't know if you've tried this yet is with shooting with the fuji camera. I like the results. I get better out of capture one. Yeah. You know what? I keep hearing this. I did not capture one at one point. I I need to explore this a little more. I've I have a 12 years love stories. Lightroom. I have the number one Lightroom uh Youtube channel on the planet with 625,000 followers. It's hard for me to shift to another system. No, I understand what for that reason, but a lot of people says I love the way you teach, we'd love to have a capture one master class from you. Even capture one, contacted me. D Xo contacted me. So I might get into that. Like, you know, just for well first I'm going to take like my 10 best photos, which is what I did originally I took my 10 best profile. Open them by Lightroom. Did the best that I could open them and capturing the best at that time. And I was 23 years ago, I did not quite see a different, I was like, I'm not going to relearn the software if I don't see the difference, you know, But I keep hearing that and and that was before. That was with Tony files. I was not with my fuji files so I gotta, I gotta do it again with the fuji files. Yeah, I haven't, I've never tried it with Sony. They they have a version of capture one that's just for Sony cameras. That's the one I had. That's what I keep hearing was better. But I know if you get if you get the universal version, which is the one I have, that one is just mind blowingly great for fuji and I can see the difference if I if I process the same fuji raw file and lightroom and then do it and capture one. I can see the differences, capture one. Yeah, it just manages fuji raw files better. It renders them better. I mean Natively without you having to do any adjustments. I'm gonna I definitely, I would I would definitely give the newest version of try you know, download the free trial and give it a shot with your with your fuji raw files because I think you'll love it and if you didn't, if you didn't capture one master class, I can imagine that will blow up to. Yeah, I should, a lot of people have been asking me for it. Okay, so now to wrap up because I know you have a limited time, you're an extremely busy person. I just wanted to ask you at the tail end of all the places you photographed. What? Where was your favorite location? Um well apart from Paris, which I've lived for 40 years. So it's kind of weird to say that, um, okay, for cityscape, I would say new york for landscape because new york is incredible for, for, for seriously uh, for landscape, I have two winners. It's hard to decide. Queenstown in New Zealand or Tuscany in Italy uh, for the landscape side of things. Now you're making me jealous. Uh huh Both of them is really high on my list. Yeah. Uh, I think Tuscany maybe bits, a little bit New Zealand a little bit, but like new Zealand is right there, Koskinen is unbelievable. But you know, I've never been to as many places. I've never, I've always wanted to go to, you know, I hear um, a lot of places in latin America are amazing. Uh, you know, uh, Japan, Oh, Iceland, no, sorry, let me revise everything. Iceland number one. Iceland. Iceland Iceland bits, Tuscany, Iceland beats. New Zealand. Iceland is, I was in Iceland with Sky Island for a week on, on, on a workshop. I got the best part of my life in that one week is, there's nothing like Iceland, you'll have to share that one for the show notes if you would, because I would love that one. Alright, so wrapping up, um, if you would go ahead and let my listeners know where they can find you any social media websites and any promotions that you might have going on right now, So photo search dot com is the Is my main website. And I have one product uh which is called the zero to pro. I've been doing a lot of controls over the last 15 years but my 02 pro, it's $197 instead of $500 right now in promotion, you can get it from photo surge. It's six module module. # one is really like camera settings. Number two is really about composition. Number three is the longest. It's retouching number four social media instagram. Youtube. Number five is how to make a website that will give you a good S. C. O. Uh to get business and how to how to price your photo, how to sell them uh and numbers. And the last module is how to get published in the press, how to get a gallery deal in the book deal. You know If you want to do this. So it's 70 from zero to pro. And I've had a lot of success with this course. It's the best I've done in 15 years. That sounds amazing. I've been talking thinking about picking that one up myself because I was in your webinar a week or so ago and that's how we first got in touch with each other. Yeah, it's hands down the best training. It took me a couple of years to do and it's the best, best thing I've had. And it includes all kind of like stuff like have a price list. You can download. Uh It's actually like a PSD we did it in illustrator where you can just put your own logo and you have like a catalog of price. You have we we combined for four years. We combine the book with the best influencers, what we call the feature accounts. People which don't create their own photography, but they will post your own photo, how to tag them. It's the fastest way to grow on instagram. So you have like a reference based on topics like travel, uh you know, feature accounts, you know, uh wildlife, feature accounts, uh Italy feature accounts, europe usa, new york etcetera etcetera. So like you have a new york photo, you can tag them if they like it. They will be posted. Another guy. I had a guy who got 40,000 subscribers in one evening with one repost like that. And another guy 85,000. Yeah. When it doesn't work often, but when it does it's brutal. Oh my goodness. That's crazy. All right. So did you have any instagram, twitter accounts? Anything like that? You want to see? Everything is photo search twitter. I'm on photo search instagram on photo search, Youtube. I'm on surgery Mellie. I do to Youtube videos per week right now. I'm crazy about youtube. I love doing youtube videos. So I'm doing a lot of YouTube videos. I have one coming next to YouTube video one is The new cinema mode on the iPhone 13, which I fell in love for. And the other one is, you're gonna like this one is uh, so I did a test, I took the Fuji 100 S&I, I bought the county too. I had best buy for $400 and I went to Clearwater Beach, one of the nicest beach in the U. S. But one of the crazy sunset and I shot the best that I could with both cameras. And then I, then I show you on screen the best thing, I don't tell you which is which and you have to guess which one is Canon and which one is fuji at the end to reveal what it is and the whole retouching process? So it's like a fuji versus it's basically, you know, there's, everybody says the best camera is the one you have on you and like, you know, you don't need to hire hand gear. Let's find out. That was the idea that my next Youtube video. Okay, So you're putting chase's theory to the test. Yeah. No. Just to see if people can see a difference. You know, like, of course you would see a difference on a print, but on the web, can you see a difference between a $400 camera And then $8,000 setup. Well, that's true and I don't know if you're familiar with him or not, but ken Rockwell. That's one of the things he's actually tested is he took the same photograph, he took the same photograph that he shot with a 12 megapixel camera and then like a 24 or 36 megapixel camera. Put the print side by side and 99.9% of the people on the street that looked at it. Couldn't tell which one was which mm They just couldn't see the difference exactly. I, I think, uh, you know, I'm guessing that's what's going to happen. I haven't looked at the photos. I just shot Just, you know, I just shot the shooting of that. But I didn't even look at the world files yet. I'm actually, that's what I do. Right? I'm gonna have some lunch and I'm going to look at the world files right after and see if I can see a difference between this world files for $400 camera versus $8,000 camera. All right, well Sarah, I want to thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Like I said, I know you're super busy with Youtube and your tutorials and all that stuff. It's cool. It's fine. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show. Hopefully you had a good time and maybe we can have you on again down the road. Oh, I love yeah, with pleasure. I love to talk about my life. The thing is I've, you know, I was looking for inspiration 15 years ago. I would have loved to listen to a story like this. It would you see if I knew that it was gonna go so well I would have done it eight years before. I could have done it eight years before. I could not have not worked for my brother and just go straight uh I could have done it 10 years before and the only reason I didn't do it 10 years before is I didn't get the inspiration back then and I hope if some young kids somewhere is listening to this and he's like oh maybe I can do it too. Yes, the answer is you can, you know the only thing that matters, you know people say let me finish on this because I think it's very important. People say, you know if you you know if you do what you love in life you never have to work it out today. And that's true to a certain degree because sometimes I have to the jewels I don't really enjoy like you know having to learn capture one, you know I know if I make a masterclass, I make great money on it, you know, but you know it's kind of I'll do it for the money, you know because a lot of people want to see me doing that, you know, but it's not like I'm not gonna enjoy it as much as just you know doing a personal photographic project, you know I'm doing it because I have to pay the bills anyways. But here is the truth for me, the most important in life is interesting. What do you have interest on? Because if you have interest something, just follow the interest, you're going to be good at it. You know, and if you, because when you have interest on something, you will take the time to learn it. You will take the time to fail at it. And and and and make it again, just follow your interests. Whatever is it that you really like do that in life. That's what's going to make you happy. Absolutely. And that was the big reason why I wanted to have you on the show today is because I knew I knew quite a bit of your background, but I didn't know all of it. And your story is a great story for anyone who's just getting into photography or thinking about getting into photography. I think this episode is gonna be super inspirational for my listeners. I hope, I hope All right, I want to thank you again for coming on the show stairs. I'm gonna let you go at this time. So you can get your lunch and get things done. And uh, hopefully we'll stay in touch and we'll have you on the show again down the road if you're uh some of my best work and the stuff from Iceland. If you want to see it. And it was a pleasure. And and the link to the Zero to pro course. If you can promote it, that'd be really nice. You got it. Not a problem sir. Thank you again. You have yourself a wonderful day. You too. Thank you William. All right. So that's gonna wrap up episode 197. I want to thank my guest surgery Mellie once again for joining me in this episode. It was absolutely fantastic to have him on the show. He is an extremely talented fine art landscape photographer and photography educator. All right. I want to thank all of my listeners once again for subscribing rating and reviewing an apple podcast, google podcast in any world. You might be listening to the show. Also be kind enough to stop by and check out the Lien Photography Youtube channel. Subscribe to the channel. Watch the videos, comment on them, share them out. Hit the little bell icon to be notified as new content drops and you definitely want to do the same for surgery Melies channel. You can find him on Youtube under surgery. Mellie Subscribe to his channel. Watch those videos. Trust me, if you want to up your photography game. He is a fantastic photography educator and you're gonna get a lot out of his content. Also be sure to check out the Zero to pro bundle sale that he has going on right now. The link is in the show notes that you can take advantage of that discounted pricing. And I also have several of his absolutely gorgeous photographs in the show notes that you can check out as well. All right. That's going to wrap this one up and I will see you all again on sunday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm.