being able to hit exactly the right person. And the mindset that you mentioned is absolutely key, because when you're on LinkedIn, you're either thinking about your work or your career. And so if you give someone an offer that augments one of those two things, it's gonna be really powerful, as opposed to Facebook, where you're just trying to get their attention in between looking at pictures of grandkids and playing Farmville. So let's talk about linked in ads, Ben. So somebody comes along and I'm going to talk really in layman's terms because, hey, I'm a bit stupid on this. So I come along and I see you and I think, what I want to target a. J. And so I type your name in or do I just go broad? Do I? Do I? How do I get my avatar on there? How do I focus in on the right people that want my product instead of sort of just going abroad because if you go broad, you go broke. But if you go niche, you get rich. Oh, I absolutely love that saying, Yeah, so here's what I tend to tell people to do when you're testing out Lincoln ads. You need to make sure that you're testing the very core your best performing content that you've ever published, Onda offered to the audience who is most likely to want to do business with you. And so I hear a lot of people say, Yeah, you know we can We can sell to the CEO But of course, the CFOs and on that decision. So let's bring the CFO in and let's advertise to the CEO OAS well, and I stopped him and just go. OK, so who's the one who's actually feeling the pain? Because if if it's your manager and director of finance or it's your I T guy, let's start there. We can always expand and go out from there. But let's start niche and figure out if this is gonna work. And if you start with your best content and your best audience and you have you have a modicum of success, you can always optimized from there and start testing the other influencers who might be in an organization. But, you know, let's let's be really smart about it. If we're only spending, let's say 1 $5000 on a test lets you know, weaken, spend that budget on anyone. We might as well spend it all on exactly the right people. Now, a lot of people would say 1 to $5000 on a test on a test, and it's not guaranteed. What would you come back to on that? I would say, if you're in that camp, absolutely avoid Lincoln ads because it is expensive. You should start on Facebook ads if you don't have those kinds of budgets on simply because if you're paying 6 to $9 for a click on LinkedIn, if you stop after $500 you don't have enough data there for the results to be statistically significant. And so the test isn't going to actually teach you anything. So I would say, unless you're bringing that kind of budget to the table for the test, avoid it entirely, and that's totally great, right? So somebody comes along and they're bootstrapping a company and they're trying to find clients. They would be better place before they've got the value, even even though they're sitting here listening to this going, Yeah, I can see what A J and David is saying. I can see this. This is the way forward. There'll be much better to grow Lee revenue that they've got in their pot before reinvesting it into linked ads linked in ads. So they're better off going toe Google or going toe Facebook or word of mouth referrals get apart, then come approved to linked in and then start reaping the rewards. And by that time they offer is probably better and stronger anyway because they're more defined to the customers that has been working with Yes, absolutely. And they have more social proof at that point. I mean, if you just go out and start showing ads saying, You know, we're this new software solution, but you don't have any customers, you don't have any social proof on the website saying we've worked with these three of the Fortune 500 thes names you recognize. It's probably not gonna perform as well. So absolutely. Look at other channels, Uh, for those who don't have the money to spend on advertising yet, a lot of people overlook the fact that Lincoln is a fantastic network to be able to find exactly the right person that you would want to do business with and start a conversation for free. So I have a lot of clients who come to us and they say, Hey, in the past, we've had three of our sales guys devoting an hour a day to searching, finding this job title among these types of companies, they reach out with a connection request. They have a conversation and they try. Thio, you know, eventually have a relationship with this person where you can get him on the phone and then they come to us and they say it seems like advertising is the way to scale this process so we don't have, you know, three hours a day anymore to do this. Our sales guys were getting busy. Is that true? And absolutely it is. Uh the advertising is the most scalable way of saying what? To get the message in front of exactly the right people, and as soon as they raised their hands, they can be moved right to the sales rep. But until then, your ads are just working for you because I get a lot of people asking to connect with me on linked in and hey David, and I don't know what I've got an American accent, but in my head, the American and I go, Hey, David, let's connect for a virtual coffee so that I can talk about what I'm doing. And I can talk to you about that and I never accept. I never accept from a tour because it just seems a bit icky and spammy. So by doing it the right way, people will connect with you. And then you can start this conversation. Yeah. So very first off, you do not wanna seem sales or spammy right off the bat and on Lincoln. That's really difficult, because I think we've all been burned by people who approached us, and it turned into a sales pitch very quickly. Eso You've got to be really smart about this. Attacked is your best friend. You are starting relationships if you are reaching out to someone because they're eventually just gonna be a lead to you. Um, it's probably gonna come off in your in your conversation. But if you actually are taking your business seriously, you're building it for the long run and starting relationships on. Do you know you're not just rushing to spread your business word? Then I think it's gonna come across a lot better realize that on social media were not there, uh, to specifically get pitched. Were there to have relationships, So take advantage of that. It's hard, though, isn't it? You know, it's hard. You walk into a bar, you see somebody, and it's hard to just seem natural, and in many ways it's worse virtually because people have got their guard up. You know, you really go onto linked in and find somebody sitting there drunk and you think to yourself, Oh, I go and chat to them They've got their guard up because they're doing the same thing. They're trying to get business. So is it is a natural game To play is the key for the people out there just to be totally natural. How would they pitch somebody that doesn't sound? Spammy A. J. You know, I fight this as well because I'm just I'm not a sales guy. I don't pitch anyone. And so it really bothers me when I reach out and I have ah, great reason to connect to someone, and they either don't connect to me or don't respond, and they perceive it as spam and I don't know. I'm just not super super skilled at the sales side of that business. Eso I fight the same thing you guys do. But I think the best way to go about this is to reach out to someone with a legitimate, great reason to connect. Make sure you, you know, fluff their ego a little bit. Um, let him know I want to connect to you because, you know, you're someone that I look up to. I'd love to follow you. I'd love to follow your content. Um, you know, kind of enjoy the wake that you're putting off. And I think that's a great reason to get someone to connect to you. And then once you're connected, uh, you know, don't reach out with a pitch, reach out with something helpful. If they're in a sales position, maybe you'd be great for you to try to get them a lead or introduce them to someone. Um, you know, you could bring up something that happened in their industry and say, What's your opinion on it? These types of things are very non threatening, and they could get people's guards down on. Of course, once you're talking to someone, and you've asked a bunch of things about them. They're gonna feel indebted to you in a way that they have to ask you what you do, and you'll have a chance to share a that point but don't force. It's gotta be natural conversation. Otherwise they'll perceive it a spam now. Well, one of the things that interests me with people is they start a business, and it's very much survival mode, and they have been pushed out off. Whatever reason, they're they're scrambling around its ugly time, the businesses ugly, the websites ugly. But then they grow up to a certain point. And then somebody jumps on board and they get employees or they get a co founder. I've seen that your company has developed that way. Is it a kind of responsibility for the other person? Do you? Do you wish that you could just do it on your own? Or do you know that you've got toe have other people working for you and working with you to really scale it where you want? You know, I struggled with this because as a business owner, as a new start up, you realize that if you hire someone, every dollar that you pay someone is a dollar that comes out of your own pocket. That's money you could be spending. And so it was a very difficult decision for me to decide when the higher and that kind of thing and I started out with really inexpensive interns for the first little while, which worked out pretty well. But I realized that two interns working 20 hours a week was not the same thing as a 40 hour a week salaried employees, especially around finals, telling him and midterms because that's when you realize that they're not there to help you out. They've got their own lives. So, um, you know, when I finally made the decision, I'm going to hire a full time person. My life absolutely changed at that point. That was, uh, the hiring of that employee was the reason why I took my very first vacation because I couldn't do it as someone doing everything. I couldn't take a vacation eso as soon as I had someone that I could offload it to my entire lifestyle changed and of course I did pay for that. But it has enabled me to bring on more clients and you know that employee has has absolutely covered himself on. You know, we continue to grow that way. So I am very, very financially conscious. And I don't want to spend more money than I have Thio. But I'm a huge fan and I will tell anyone starting a business this hiring your first employees will change your life for the better. Because the way I've structured the show at the beginning, well, it still may I do everything but I have a podcast training resource called podcasters mastery. And when I was started it, I was juggling it with the business and I was doing join up darts. And I was doing a coaching as well, and it kind of just got me down. I felt like I was doing it all the time. So now I structure it for one month on one month off. I have one month on and I train to people. Get them up and running. Get them, Thio, get laser targeted leads on. Podcasting is more like podcast marketing on. Then I close it off and I don't do anything for a month, and then I go crazy again for the next month, and I find that works very well for me. Is that something that you can do in your business? Is it better to have the open door, closed door policy or just a steady stream of leads coming through for May? I think it has to be a steady stream, because when you're when you're in agency, there are certain months, especially in business, to business like we are there certain months like December, where there's not a whole lot going on so I can plan vacations, trips, travel, that kind of thing around it, but otherwise leads air coming in, tow us all the time. As more and more people are becoming interested in Lincoln Advertising eso I don't think I could take that kind of time off. But I absolutely love your model because I've been feeling, you know, some pretty extreme burn out over the last few weeks, where my calendar has just been slammed, and I am so looking forward to a vacation where if I could break it up and have, you know, trips every so often or take some time off to break up the monotony, I don't think I'd get burned out as fast. So I'm gonna work towards what You have, my friend. Yeah, and I have, you know, I hold my hand up and I've said this many times on the show. There's no secrets with May I have had burned out twice and the first time I just thought I could outwork people. And then the second time, I don't know why I allowed it to happen again. And I just realized I was just getting flatter and flatter. And so now, as I say on that month, I close it off. I don't have any phones. I don't have any in connective ity. No one can get hold of May. And it hasn't affected my business in any shape or form. I literally sit there in quiet time, doing a bit of work here and there when I fancy it. But I come back and I'm strong and I had a guy on the show. Probably Episode Roller must be in early days about episode 92 or something. And he was saying that his whole life was built around many vacations and he said that his whole energy level builds up to a crescendo of getting it done in that time frame on when he closes it off and goes off on many retirement for about two or three months, and he said after about the first month, he's kind of ready to get back into it, but he doesn't. He holds off, and the better ideas come into his head, the better on processes, everything becomes crystal clear. So when he comes back, he's business exponentially grows just because he's being allowed to separate himself from it. I find that fascinating. A. J. I'm super inspired by that. I think I've built this business around the fact that I learned about Lincoln ads and so there's an opportunity and became an expert on. Now I'm offering that to client. So I'm worried that at this stage of my business, I wouldn't be able to step away because my I think my clients would perceive that they weren't getting what they paid for. But I think over time as the business grows, I'll be able to prop up my employees as the Lincoln experts that they are and distance myself at least my name a little bit and strengthen the brand and I think I might be able to get to that point, but I'll be honest, except for these times of extreme burnout. I love going to work every day and I love what I dio and that kind of keeps the fire burning. So at some point, maybe you'd be great. Thio, you know, say I'm gonna take every Thursday off and just work around that and do something fun every Thursday. I don't know. Something like that would be amazing for May I tell you what I would do? You know, if I go on a virgin airplane? I don't expect Richard Branson to be flying it for me. I just expect he's he's business e force. He's sort order to be spread around in customer service. Whatever. And I would basically franchise your business out. I had a guy on the show and his name escapes me, but basically he personally trains people up to the same level as him, and he says, you know, personally trained by A. J. Wilcots and they go out and do the work. And then he gets the next group in and he trains him up, absolutely sort of a master class and he franchises out and they're all under his umbrella. He takes a commission on whatever they earn, and they operate with the leads coming through. I found it fascinating, but actually the quality. And I suppose it sort of ties up with Gordon Ramsay in these chefs. You don't expect to go into a Gordon Ramsay restaurant on have him cooking, but you expect the quality of the work to be the same. You expect that he's work ethic comes through on the plate, and I think with yourself, I think that's actually what I would do. You know, you've got the knowledge you've got the experience, share it round and scale while being free from it as well. David, you're absolutely correct there. I think that's where I want to get to. I think it's business owners. It's so hard when this business is your baby. You've built it from the very beginning and there's a lot of pain. And in deciding to give up certain portions, I mean, even hiring my first employee, it was like a way I've always done this. I don't know if I want Thio entrust someone else with it s o. I think Every business center just needs to get over those pains and start being willing to delegate. And the more that I delegate, I think the more I'm gonna get comfortable doing it, and I eventually want to get to the franchise model, I think that'd be great. Yeah, I think it be great as well. You know, that's the one Achilles heel on join up dots. But I'm the host, you know, so I could get a guest host or whatever, but I feel passionate that my voice should be coming out to the world. So in that regard, I can't escape it. But everything else you know, I don't literally have to touch it. I could almost just sit there on the microphone on Do it across the world, and I think that's one of the mentalities a. J. That the world now has to get that they're not in it on their own. There are people out there wanting toe earn money themselves, and they from the Philippines, toe India to America. Whatever on over task that you get bogged down with, it's very easy to free yourself up so that you can provide the service and the real super talent that will grow your business. It's big mindset. But once you get to that point of realizing that, actually, if I'm in my office for eight hours a day and I'm only really doing my super talent for to then get rid of the eight, get rid of the and allow somebody else toe flourish, you're actually helping them get a better life from paying them to do it. Absolutely. I totally want to get there. I am walking away from this interview. A smarter man. So thank you for sharing your I'll send the check through to you A. J. I send the check through. Um, So what we're gonna do now we're gonna play the words off Steve Jobs. He created the whole theme back in 2000 and five when he stood up and said these words at Stanford University. Let's hear him again. Here's Steve. Of course, it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college, but it was very, very clear looking backwards 10 years later, again, you can't connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backwards, so you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future, you have to trust in something your gut destiny, life, karma, whatever. Because believing that the dots will connect down the road, we'll give you the confidence to follow your heart even when it leads you off the well worn path. And that will make all the difference. They're amazing words, aren't they? Absolutely. They are. So So when you listen to them, how How did I make you feel? Did I make you feel inspired that I make you feel enthusiastic for your future? Yeah. I think inspirational is really where I'd stick that because as a as a younger person, I was always really interested in in running, starting businesses, that kind of thing. But I was I was quite frankly scared. And if you told me at that point that I would at some point start a business, I'd probably tell you you were crazy. S O. Yeah, it's It's absolutely true. When I look back at my past, I never would have said, Okay, here's my progression. I'm going thio work in agencies, then in house. Then, uh then I'm gonna break off and start my own consulting agency and, uh, like that just wouldn't have happened. I feel like my my path has been, ah, little bit crooked that way. But now, looking back at it, I see where every piece of knowledge that I gained and hustle that I did collaborated to place me where I am and so absolutely, very inspirational. And what, you're sort of rejection from the company. Would that be your big dot or would it be something else down your timeline that really gave you the competence when you thought, Yeah, this is it. I'm onto something here. Oh, absolutely. That was probably the biggest dot. I mean, there's the biggest change in my life that could have happened. Eso You know, even though I wasn't excited to be laid off, I was I can absolutely look back at it now and say that was the best thing that ever happened to me.