state. I don't think he had that over excelled genius at all. I think you probably average definitely wasn't below average. Well, we don't know, do we? There's nothing to say. I'm sure there's some. It's written somewhere, but we don't know. So okay, so Roy Norris was born on the second of February 1948 therefore eight years junior Toby Tocca, who was born in Greeley, Colorado, in 65. He's now 17. Like I said, there's quite a jump there. He drops out of high school and joined the US Navy. Okay, most of his service has spent in San Diego, although he does serve four months in Vietnam. But he doesn't have any combat, doesn't see any combat whatsoever. And it's about this time that he starts using marijuana. Okay, moving on. Four years later, November 69 now 21 years old, he forces himself into a woman's car on attempted to rape her. But e. I mean, he's caught for doing this, but he's freed on bail. Doesn't say anything more about that, but that's obviously his first attempted a crime that's far that's actually listed as far as we could tell. Okay, so three months following that whilst he was on bail. He's actually arrested this time for breaking and entering a woman's home with the intent to rape her. But he stopped by the police, and he's captured again by then. So he's a lot mawr full on. And embittered has Bean. You know, he's been a bit like, you know, petty theft, you know, just stealing small things, getting caught because clearly rubbish it. And then he's attacked someone that's confronted him about it. Yeah, it's a different level. This is obviously mainly sexually driven. You know, he's after attacking women. So yeah, it's in some respects. It's a lot more sinister and a lot more disturbing, I think, anyway, so because of what happens with the rape or attempted rape that he gets caught with, he consequently received administrative discharge from the Navy on the following grounds, psychological problems and severe schizoid personality. For me, that's a mouthful. It is, isn't it? At least I managed to say it this week. Last week I was rubbish. To be fair, that isn't anywhere near as complicated as last week. Okay, May of the following year. He's now 22. He's still on bail, but because obviously has thes drives, he can't control them. He attacks a female student who attends the campus of the San Diego State University. He bashes her head with a stone, presumably to subdue her. I don't know. Then he repeatedly slammed her head into a pavement. However, she does survive the attack, and he is charged with assault with a deadly weapon. Okay, he is confined in Atascadero State Hospital pronounced Thank you. It's probably wrong on I May be. May be corrected, Yes, but we'll go with Atascadero State Hospital, which is a psychiatric institution on. He's confined as a mentally disordered sex offender. So he's a completely different league in the early days. Thio particular, isn't he? Yes, he is. He's quite disturbing. I mean, both of them are are bad. Both of them are no good if you like, But yeah, he's a different level. I'm sure makes you question what he says at the end, doesn't it? It does just a bit. Okay, He's there for five years on, but obviously now 27 years old, he's released on probation. Andi Yeah. The board deemed him to be no further danger to others. So they actually got that completely wrong because three months later he attacks a 27 year old woman, strangles her with her own scarf to the point of unconsciousness and then raped her. He then he gets caught for this is, Well, he's a very good is he? You know he's not getting away. He's convicted or forcible rape on dissent to the California Men's Colony. That said, Louis Obisbo, I think we both said it the same way. And apologies to the listeners. If that's wrong on that is where he meets your guy. Laurence Bit occur. Yes. So I've got a statement here. I don't know how true it is, but it says that the two men claim to be soul mates and that they never left one another side. I've read what you have about the fact that they were firm friends, soulmates inseparable, that sort of thing. Whether I don't think there's any sort of like, um, other than friendship, love, I don't think it's anything on on the homosexual side. It doesn't give any of those sort of lines it all, But it does also say Norris does claim that bitter has saved his life twice, but it doesn't say how that happened. What What? The situation waas when he did that. So whether that's true or not, I don't know, but obviously very like minded, both completely and utterly caught up with this notion of rape, torture and murder. Yeah, two very, very dangerous people to meet ever. It was exactly that. So Lawrence, better Care is released a few months before Roy Norris. Andi, they agree. What in jail that they're going to meet up on Do this. So upon Norris's release, he makes contact with Piturca. I have it the other way around. I have it that obviously you got the same as you that Norris was released just a little bit. After Piturca Andi went to live with his mother in a trailer park in L. A. Andi. He used his Navy training to find workers an electrician's, which he was quite successful. That and it was actually the February, which is like a month after he was released. I have it that bit occur, contacted Norris by letter asking him to go through with the plans they made while they're incarcerated, which I'm guessing he agreed to because they met at a motel in that February 1979 so they didn't just go straight into it. This is where I think the higher IQ came up with it. Whereas, you know, yes, they both had this track record of whatever they've been doing and in and out of jail. But with Norris's record, I think it's just go for it. Don't think, act, think they're sort of thing. But they really thought about this. Andi. They did some trial runs, so they drove out Thio the mountains, San Gabriel Mountains. That's the ones, Andi. They found a fire road, and they decided that this would be the perfect location. Thio commit their crimes. They did some trial runs with a few women where they simply pick them up, take them to where they were asking to G o. But just finding the right words to use the right actions to portray in order. Thio Get the women into the van. Absolutely. So a few years prior, bit thicker had purchased in 1977 GMC cargo van. It was a sliding side door and had no rear windows. The front windows had been blacked out, so you couldn't see who was in the van. When they went to look at the van, they noticed that you didn't have to open the side door A with way to be able to pull someone in which they thought was a great advantage. They nicknamed this van the Murder Mac. This van lived up to its name on June 24th, 1979.