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Episode 98 of 137

[Special Episode] The Mindstate Marketing Hour #22 with Will Leach - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 98

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The ROI Online Podcast
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Duration: 41:39
In this weekly episode* of the Mindstate Marketing Hour, host Steve Brown of ROI Online, interviews Will Leach, author of Marketing to Mindstates, founder of Triggerpoint, and CEO of the Mindstate Group on why focusing on customers emotions and mindstates is key to successful marketing.*Originally p
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In this weekly episode* of the Mindstate Marketing Hour, host Steve Brown of ROI Online, interviews Will Leach, author of Marketing to Mindstates, founder of Triggerpoint, and CEO of the Mindstate Group on why focusing on customers emotions and mindstates is key to successful marketing.*Originally produced as a Livestream videoMindstate Group free resources: https://www.mindstategroup.com/resourcesInterested in getting more Marketing to Mindstates content?Read Will's book: Marketing to MindstatesCheck out their website: https://www.mindstategroup.com/Follow Will on LinkedIn, Twitter, FacebookNeed real resources that will help you grow your business? Grab your FREE business growth stack resources here!https://thegoldentoilet.com/resourcesThinking of starting your own podcast? Buzzsprout’s secure and reliable posting allows you to publish podcasts online. Buzzsprout also includes full iTunes support, HTML5 players, show statistics, and WordPress plugins. Get started using this link to receive a $20 Amazon gift card and to help support our show!Support the show (https://cash.app/$stevemfbrown)
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So what are some other physical barriers that you know? Yeah. Second one, I thought is just cost right. And there's some things you can do with costs. Some things you can't do a cost. Now. I'm not only suggesting Hey, if something is too expensive for your customer, then you have to lower your cost or give some sort of a coupon. I don't necessarily believe in that, frankly, but you can make cost more palatable by chunking it chunking into chunks. Right. Um, that's something you did, uh, for your starter packs, right? Steve is you're like, Hey, it's a big investment. So let's gonna we're gonna chunk this out for you to make it more available to you, right? So it's just simple, um, chunking or even payment plans, right. Simple payment plans or pay by credit card. Or you can pay by Bitcoin whatever it is. But just make things easier for people to buy. Doesn't have to be a lower cost necessarily, but it can just be an easier way of getting those costs to something manageable on a weekly or monthly basis. So it takes a little effort. But once you do that, you eliminate a huge, huge barrier. Um, size is another one. So I start to think about size. And, you know, sometimes I don't need to have 48 rolls of toilet paper right, And that shouldn't be my only size. The in today's world, Maybe that's a good idea. So sometimes sizes like what's the right size for my family? And so one of the things that comes to mind is I used to multi pack research or multi pack Cheetos and stuff like that. You know, snacks. And what happens is you know, there's a reason why you can have 18 packs versus 24 packs or whatever. The reason why is what you do is you try to figure out how many what's the average number of Children in the home. And you want to make sure that mom doesn't have to on a Thursday night get up in the middle of the night to go over to Walgreens to be able to come back and grab chips for a Friday lunch. What do you do is you think through how many sandwiches are gonna be made that week and make sure that one snack packets with that It's just simple. Things like that is giving people the right size for who they are, Um, and so that just matter, that just takes a little bit of thinking and saying, Okay, am I offering the right number of products when I bundle these things?
there's some other physical barriers that you know. Yeah, second one, I thought, is just cost right. And there's some things you can do with costs. Some things you can't do it costs. Now, I'm not only suggesting Hey, if something is too expensive for your customer, then you have to lower your costs or give some sort of a coupon. I don't necessarily believe in that, frankly, but you can make cost more palatable by chunking it chunking into chunks. Right. Um, that's something you did, uh, for your starter packs, right? Stevens, you're like, Hey, it's a big investment. So let's gonna we're gonna chunk this out for you to make it more available to you, right? So it's just simple, um, chunking or even payment plans, right. Simple payment plans or pay by credit card. Or you can pay by Bitcoin whatever it is. But just make things easier for people to buy. Doesn't have to be a lower cost necessarily, but it can just be an easier way of getting those costs to something manageable on a weekly or monthly basis. So it takes a little effort. But once you do that, you eliminate a huge huge barrier. Um, size is another one. So I start to think about size. And, you know, sometimes I don't need to have 48 rolls of toilet paper right, And that shouldn't be my only size. The in today's world. Maybe that's a good idea. So sometimes sizes like what's the right size for my family? And so one of the things that comes to mind is used to multi pack research of multi pack Cheetos and stuff like that. You know, snacks. And what happens is, you know there's a reason why you can have 18 packs versus 24 packs or whatever. The reason why is what you do is you try to figure out how many what's the average number of Children in the home. And you want to make sure that mom doesn't have to on a Thursday night get up in the middle of the night to go over to Walgreens to be able to come back and grab chips for a Friday lunch. What do you do is you think through how many sandwiches are gonna be made that week and make sure that one snack packets with that. It's just simple things like that is giving people the right size for who they are. Um, and so that just matter that just takes a little bit of thinking and saying, Okay. Am I offering the right number of products when I bundle these things?
Oh, what are some other physical barriers that you know? Yeah. Second one, I thought is just cost right. And there's some things you can do with costs. Some things you can't do a cost. Now, I'm not only suggesting Hey, if something is too expensive for your customer, then you have to lower your cost or give some sort of a coupon. I don't necessarily believe in that, frankly, but you can make cost more palatable by chunking it chunking into chunks. Right. Um, that's something you did, uh, for your starter packs, right? Stevens, you're like, Hey, it's a big investment. So let's gonna we're gonna chunk this out for you to make it more available to you, right? So it's just simple, um, chunking or even payment plans, right. Simple payment plans or pay by credit card. Or you can pay by Bitcoin whatever it is. But just make things easier for people to buy. Doesn't have to be a lower cost necessarily, but it can just be an easier way of getting those costs to something manageable on a weekly or monthly basis. So it takes a little effort. But once you do that, you eliminate a huge, huge barrier. Um, size is another one. So I start to think about size. And, you know, sometimes I don't need to have 48 rolls of toilet paper right, And that shouldn't be my only size. The in today's world. Maybe that's a good idea. So sometimes sizes like what's the right size for my family? And so one of the things that comes to mind is used to multi pack research of multi pack Cheetos and stuff like that. You know, snacks. And what happens is, you know there's a reason why you can have 18 packs versus 24 packs or whatever. The reason why is what you do is you try to figure out how many what's the average number of Children in the home. And you want to make sure that mom doesn't have to on a Thursday night get up in the middle of the night to go over to Walgreens to be able to come back and grab chips for a Friday lunch. What do you do is you think through how many sandwiches are gonna be made that week and make sure that one snack packets with that. It's just simple things like that is giving people the right size for who they are. Um, and so that just matter that just takes a little bit of thinking and saying, Okay. Am I offering the right number of products when I bundle these things?
So what are some other physical barriers that you know? Yeah. Second one, I thought is just cost right. And there's some things you can do with costs. Some things you can't do a cost. Now. I'm not only suggesting Hey, if something is too expensive for your customer, then you have to lower your cost or give some sort of a coupon. I don't necessarily believe in that, frankly, but you can make cost more palatable by chunking it chunking into chunks. Right. Um, that's something you did, uh, for your starter packs, right? Steve is you're like, Hey, it's a big investment. So let's gonna we're gonna chunk this out for you to make it more available to you, right? So it's just simple, um, chunking or even payment plans, right. Simple payment plans or pay by credit card. Or you can pay by Bitcoin whatever it is. But just make things easier for people to buy. Doesn't have to be a lower cost necessarily, but it can just be an easier way of getting those costs to something manageable on a weekly or monthly basis. So it takes a little effort. But once you do that, you eliminate a huge, huge barrier. Um, size is another one. So I start to think about size. And, you know, sometimes I don't need to have 48 rolls of toilet paper right, And that shouldn't be my only size. The in today's world, Maybe that's a good idea. So sometimes sizes like what's the right size for my family? And so one of the things that comes to mind is I used to multi pack research or multi pack Cheetos and stuff like that. You know, snacks. And what happens is you know, there's a reason why you can have 18 packs versus 24 packs or whatever. The reason why is what you do is you try to figure out how many what's the average number of Children in the home. And you want to make sure that mom doesn't have to on a Thursday night get up in the middle of the night to go over to Walgreens to be able to come back and grab chips for a Friday lunch. What do you do is you think through how many sandwiches are gonna be made that week and make sure that one snack packets with that It's just simple. Things like that is giving people the right size for who they are, Um, and so that just matter, that just takes a little bit of thinking and saying, Okay, am I offering the right number of products when I bundle these things?
mhm. Yeah, bring them in, set them down. It's kind of humbling. And don't be defensive and don't defend it, but you need to ask open ended non leading questions while you're watching them. Experience whatever it is that you created order to talk out loud while you're doing this. And why are you going down this path? It's shocking to think how all this hard work you put into something and you throw it out there and you're not realizing you just added a bunch of friction places that are unnecessary. I love that word shocking. And let me give you a dollar figure that is shocking If you think to yourself. This probably isn't a big deal to me. Here's what I'll tell you. So in that book Friction by Roger Dooley, he quotes that in 2016 $4.6 trillion was left an abandoned e commerce cart. I didn't say million. I didn't say billion, I said Trillion. So you don't so imagine that right? So if somebody is on your website, you got to be a part of that. Like we're all probably a part of that world of $4.6 trillion where somebody is gone. They've looked at everything. They put something in the car. So they had all the motivation they needed, right? Steve, like they actually made the selection to choose you. But somewhere right after that, you created freshen. And sometimes it's your fault. Sometimes it's not your fault. But imagine that in that case you lost on that 4.6 trillion dollars and, you know, one of my biggest you know, kind of. Oh, I don't know Heroes is a guy by the name of Daniel Kahneman and Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize winner in economics. Though he's a psychologist, he's the guy who's, you know, kind of the father of behavioral economics and all the topics that we talked about today. He wrote this book thinking fast and slow, and he has a quote in thinking fast and slow, which I think of. Daniel Kahneman is the guy who understands subconscious motivations and how to get people to act. You know, some some really heavy stuff. I mean, you know, Nobel Prize winner and what he says here, and it's so like something my mom would say. But he says, in a very profound way But he says a general law of least effort applies to physical and cognitive effort. People will gravitate to the least demanding course of action and then, like laziness, is built into our nature. That's my mom would say Laziness is built into our into our nature, meaning that at the end of the day you can motivate people as much as you want. And sometimes that motivation gets people. Even though you have friction, they will still buy from me because you are an incredible market. You have an incredible product. But laziness is built into our nature by by by by by habit, by circumstances we're all lazy, so make sure that you have something that's so easy. And he would say That's probably the fastest thing you can do to get people to change their behaviors. Make that new behavior as easy as possible.
So let's talk about the ways that you kind of do a friction audit on your processes. Or is it your It's not just on your your marketing materials. It's on the whole customer really experience, right? I think you're right. I think it's the whole customer journey. And in fact, I don't know if you really want to focus on marketing at first at all. Frankly, right. Um, I think what you want to do is get like, you know, you said Was it your Tiffany? Is that it? Tiffany, my mom. You can hire us out. You can hire my mom is still come looking. Look at your fire journey. And my mom will show times when you think it's so clear and she will tell you that she will make sure you know that it's not clear. I'll tell you that. Um, yeah, I think what we know what the best things I've done recently is I've gone through my website, which is my key mechanism to, you know, to interact with people as well as to drive sales. Um, that's my channel. That's my sales channel, right? And me going through the process. Um, that's not the best thing to do, But I'd be It's a really smart thing if you're an entrepreneur, actually go through it and you'll find out where just even today. I saw a link was broken because it was buried into three different levels and I just never went to the project. That link is broken. If you don't go through that process yourself, then the secondary thing comes which I got an email from one of my customers last week that said he was disappointed in something that we did. And that's not the way you want to learn about. Friction is when somebody says, Hey, I'm disappointed in the customer service that we that we gave So we rectified it and he was gracious, but I was like, That's not a good way to learn about it. The first thing you should probably do is just go through the process yourself and even better have somebody who's not like you, said a Tiffany or my mom who doesn't understand The industry doesn't justify why this point of friction is in there and why it makes sense as a business and let them go through it and tell you where they're confused where they felt drained, etcetera. So that's a really simple thing you can do is just have people go through your process.
Yeah. You know, I think a lot of it is Steve, is this. I don't remember in school me ever talking about friction or barriers what you learn as you learn about marketing and how to get people to do stuff. So it's almost like that motivation side of what we talked about so much, you and I, about how do you increase motivation for your business and increase people's desire to buy and all that kind of stuff? And it was actually, um, the reason why this team came up because I don't traditionally think about fraction either because I'm in the motivational psychology. I focus on trying to create hot states. Right. That's what the book is all about is creating a hot state with your customers so that they will buy or they'll engage with you. And I'm doing some work right now with the company. And it was through this exploration that I started thinking a lot more about the kind of counterpoint of motivation and and marketing, and the point of marketing is to get people to buy and get them excited about you. But then the counterpoint and that is so once they get excited about you. How do you make their life easy so that they will keep that motivation going? And there's this analogy of a slide. There's a There's a guy by the name of Roger Julie, who wrote a book called Friction. We'll talk about that a little bit, but he talks about a slide, and when you're the top of the slide, you have this momentum right? You have the motivation to buy. But then what he says is, if you just get out of the way, you'll slide right down. And the shopper, your customer, will get exactly what they need. But what we tend to do is businesses is we put in all these stupid um, you know, I guess the stupid taxes or just friction, things that we think are really important to us, and we're getting in the way. And so it's such a neat experience of of learning more about friction. And so I figured I'd share with you some of the things I learned from his book and some things that I know from cognitive psychology. Yes, friction, those little stupid taxes, and they weren't apparent to me. But then, when you're talking about and you go, Oh, my gosh, why didn't I? It's obvious. It's not like this hard concept that we have to really struggle to accept. Uh, no, it's just it's just I don't think we think about it. I think we're business people who think about marketing and motivation and getting more sales, getting more sales. We don't realize that the fastest and the easiest thing you can do to get sales is get out of yourself and make things easier for your customers. Um, and it's hard for me to think that way, right? Because I I live in a world of behavioral psychology, but these are simple things to do. You can do immediately right now, and you could probably increase your sales almost almost immediately.
Yeah. You know, I think a lot of it is Steve, is this. I don't remember in school me ever talking about friction or barriers what you learn as you learn about marketing and how to get people to do stuff. So it's almost like that motivation side of what we talked about so much, you and I, about how do you increase motivation for your business and increase people's desire to buy and all that kind of stuff? And it was actually, um, the reason why this team came up because I don't traditionally think about fraction either because I'm in the motivational psychology. I focus on trying to create hot states. Right. That's what the book is all about is creating a hot state with your customers so that they will buy or they'll engage with you. And I'm doing some work right now with the company. And it was through this exploration that I started thinking a lot more about the kind of counterpoint of motivation and and marketing, and the point of marketing is to get people to buy and get them excited about you. But then the counterpoint and that is so once they get excited about you. How do you make their life easy so that they will keep that motivation going? And there's this analogy of a slide. There's a There's a guy by the name of Roger Julie, who wrote a book called Friction. We'll talk about that a little bit, but he talks about a slide, and when you're the top of the slide, you have this momentum right? You have the motivation to buy. But then what he says is, if you just get out of the way, you'll slide right down. And the shopper, your customer, will get exactly what they need. But what we tend to do is businesses is we put in all these stupid um, you know, I guess the stupid taxes or just friction, things that we think are really important to us, and we're getting in the way. And so it's such a neat experience of of learning more about friction. And so I figured I'd share with you some of the things I learned from his book and some things that I know from cognitive psychology. Yes, friction, those little stupid taxes, and they weren't apparent to me. But then, when you're talking about and you go, Oh, my gosh, why didn't I? It's obvious. It's not like this hard concept that we have to really struggle to accept. Uh, no, it's just it's just I don't think we think about it. I think we're business people who think about marketing and motivation and getting more sales, getting more sales. We don't realize that the fastest and the easiest thing you can do to get sales is get out of yourself and make things easier for your customers. Um, and it's hard for me to think that way, right? Because I I live in a world of behavioral psychology, but these are simple things to do. You can do immediately right now, and you could probably increase your sales almost all
Yeah. You know, I think a lot of it is Steve, is this. I don't remember in school me ever talking about friction or barriers what you learn as you learn about marketing and how to get people to do stuff. So it's almost like that motivation side of what we talked about so much, you and I, about how do you increase motivation for your business and increase people's desire to buy and all that kind of stuff? And it was actually, um, the reason why this team came up because I don't traditionally think about fraction either because I'm in the motivational psychology. I focus on trying to create hot states. Right. That's what the book is all about is creating a hot state with your customers so that they will buy or they'll engage with you. And I'm doing some work right now with the company. And it was through this exploration that I started thinking a lot more about the kind of counterpoint of motivation and and marketing, and the point of marketing is to get people to buy and get them excited about you. But then the counterpoint and that is so once they get excited about you. How do you make their life easy so that they will keep that motivation going? And there's this analogy of a slide. There's a There's a guy by the name of Roger Julie, who wrote a book called Friction. We'll talk about that a little bit, but he talks about a slide, and when you're the top of the slide, you have this momentum right? You have the motivation to buy. But then what he says is, if you just get out of the way, you'll slide right down. And the shopper, your customer, will get exactly what they need. But what we tend to do is businesses is we put in all these stupid um, you know, I guess the stupid taxes or just friction, things that we think are really important to us, and we're getting in the way. And so it's such a neat experience of of learning more about friction. And so I figured I'd share with you some of the things I learned from his book and some things that I know from cognitive psychology
now will you know how many times I don't know how many times it's been that I'll go somewhere and I'm excited about it. But then I get into the situation. I've already researched it. I looked online, I made the decision to do it. Then I go over to get it and I run into all these. I call them stupid taxes, but you're calling them friction. But they're like these really just unscarred. Things are in the way of just getting what you want, and it's friction. It's just stupid tax friction that's been put in there that frustrates you and potentially could run you off. But you've got a plan on how to lower buying friction. I do. And I am guilty of putting in my own stupid tax even on my own website. He actually brought You brought this thing to mind, actually just now. So I remember when we first launched, I wanted to uncover all this information, um, from people coming to my website. So if you wanted to get some of my free materials, certainly you know, I want your first name and your email address. But then I started saying, Where are you from and what city you're from Because maybe one day I could use that. So I'm gonna do a tour. I would know what city. And then I started asking, What profession are you in? Because I want to know whether you're a marketing research or a marketer or a, uh, an agency owner or a small business owner. And after I got all my wishes, all my my things that I wanted out of the way I started noticing that I had about five different questions you had to answer before you got your free assessment. Right? At some point, um, you know, you start realizing that people were dropping off as you would expect, because every one of those things as a point of friction so, you know, got out of my own way. Now we only ask first name and email address for me to be able to send you this stuff, and my rates have gone up again because I started thinking more about my customer. Imagine that as a human being. Then I did about myself and my desire to learn more about who's coming to my website
And now will you know how many times I don't know how many times it's been that I'll go somewhere and I'm excited about it. But then I get into the situation. I've already researched it. I looked online, I made the decision to do it. Then I go over to get it and I run into all these. I call them stupid taxes, but you're calling them friction. But they're like these really just unscarred things there in the way of just getting what you want. And it's friction. It's just stupid tax friction that's been put in there that frustrates you and potentially could run you off. But you've got a plan on how to lower buying friction. I do. And I am guilty of putting in my own stupid tax even on my own website. He actually brought you brought this thing to mind, actually just now. So I remember when we first launched, I wanted to uncover all this information, um, from people coming to my website. So if you wanted to get some of my free materials, certainly you know, I want your first name and your email address. But then I started saying where are you from and what city you're from? Because maybe one day I could use that. So I'm gonna do a tour. I would know what city. And then I started asking, What profession are you in? Because I want to know whether you're a marketing research or a marketer or a, uh, an agency owner or a small business owner. And after I got all my wishes, all my my things that I wanted out of the way I started noticing that I had about five different questions you had to answer before you got your free assessment. Right? At some point, um, you know, you start realizing that people were dropping off as you would expect, because every one of those things as a point of friction so, you know, got out of my own way. Now we only ask first name and email address for me to be able to send you this stuff, and my rates have gone up again because I started thinking more about my customer. Imagine that as a human being. Then I did about myself and my desire to learn more about who's coming to my website
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