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The Fringe Legal Podcast is a collection of conversations with legal innovators on how to put ideas into practice. Each episode is a discussion with a change-maker who shares their ideas, insights, and lessons from their journey. Continue Reading >>
The Fringe Legal Podcast is a collection of conversations with legal innovators on how to put ideas into practice. Each episode is a discussion with a change-maker who shares their ideas, insights, and lessons from their journey. << Show Less
Featured Audio
State of no-code in Legal with Jackson Liu To supplement the release of the Fringe Legal no-code report, which provides 100s of hours of market research in 6-min, we speak with Jackson Liu, Chief Commercial Officer at Neota, about the state of no-code in legal. During the conversation, we discuss:
How firms are using no-code tools
Leveraging no-code tools as a competitive advantage
Focusing on the customer journey and adoption for long-term success
No-code challenges
Future of no-code
You can read the full No-code report at
Newest Audio
State of no-code in Legal with Jackson Liu To supplement the release of the Fringe Legal no-code report, which provides 100s of hours of market research in 6-min, we speak with Jackson Liu, Chief Commercial Officer at Neota, about the state of no-code in legal. During the conversation, we discuss:
How firms are using no-code tools
Leveraging no-code tools as a competitive advantage
Focusing on the customer journey and adoption for long-term success
No-code challenges
Future of no-code
You can read the full No-code report at
Digital Transformation and designing the future of law with Kai Jacob On this episode with speak with Kai Jacob  - Partner at KPMG and Co-founder of Liquid Legal Institute - about digital transformation and designing the future of law. In the episode we cover (min.seconds):
Introduction -&gt; 0.20
Enthusiasm vs adoption of technology -&gt; 1.56
Founding the think thank -&gt; 3.24
Facilitating cross collaboration -&gt; 5.06
Distributing projects equitably -&gt; 6.04
Designing the future -&gt; 10.14
Mental wellbeing -&gt; 13.52
Skills for future lawyers -&gt; 21.54
Being embedded with customers -&gt; 27.12
Highlights from the episode What is Liquid Legal InstituteWe consider ourselves a collaboration community of doers. So we like to do stuff, everything that we tackle and that we focus on should lead very fast to a result. Not just talking, doing.Lack of collaboration in the legal market...they helped us really to nail down the question of 'why is the legal market not collaborating'? That was a very interesting question because we are all sharing, we all do this together. We even have this concept of Co-opetition. Then why not work with competitors on something like setting standards? Why should we, in the legal market, cooperate? We are all making good money with this private wisdom that we have and built up over time. So why should we share? We also believe that without sharing, without creating true standards in the market, it will take ages to go through this digital transformation.Struggling with digital transformationWe see that people are really struggling with digital transformation. They first don't understand why all this is happening. They're missing the digital mindset.The idea that digital transformation is something positive. They do not get the link back to legal because, they are thinking that what we do is something that's handcrafted; it's something that relies on very special knowledge.We do a perfect job of creating the perfect, beautiful contract that nobody else understands. We see beauty. And we see our role in protecting our company and defending our companies, defending our client's interests. It's just that the other side doesn't understand it.So the digital aspect is that we need to get more out of this dormant contract that's archived in the file cabinet somewhere. To make it valuable information, accessible for the digital company that we are working in.The whole idea of digital transformation is to make information that sits somewhere in an unstructured format, deep in contracts, more accessibleWe miss a huge opportunity for our profession to sit at the C-suite table and contribute to the overall goals of the enterprise. Second, everything moves so fast. We are overwhelmed with the speed of change. And we need to understand that change is constant and it will never go back to a slow motion mode. It will not happen. It will be fast. So we need to learn how to become adaptable, call it agile, call it whatever, but we need to adapt fast to a changing world. We need first to understand what is digital, and second how to deal with that in an agile working model.About Liquid Legal InstitueThe Liquid Legal Institute is an open and interdisciplinary platform for promoting a new way of thinking in the legal sector. Digitalization, new business models and technological innovations are currently changing all major industries worldwide. However, the legal sector has not yet benefited sufficiently from these trends. The Liquid Legal Institute was founded by seven experts from legal and business practice, design thinking, and computer science to close this gap.
Value based pricing for law firms with Keith Maziarek Lawyers and firms have long struggled to find the right way to price their services.The hourly billing model focuses on the amount of time spent on a matter, project, or case. This can often lead to inefficiencies and frustration for the lawyer and the client. Value based pricing is an alternative that takes into account the value of the service being provided rather than simply the time spent. It means that lawyers and firms are paid based on the results they achieve for their clients.The incentive becomes focused on getting better results. Value-based pricing can also help build trust and improve communication between lawyers and clients.However, that doesn't make pricing or pricing conversations any easier. In this episode, we go into the rabbit hole of pricing.  SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW:  iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // StitcherSpecial thanks to Paul Stroka of LexFusion for making the introduction to Keith.Episode content
Introduction and summary ➡ 1.24
Power of buyer ➡ 4.30
Power of supplier ➡ 7.34
Elastic economic market ➡ 9.42
Price discrimination ➡ 13.14
Client sophistication ➡ 17.08
Inflation and pricing for specialized services ➡ 23.46
The next service delivery model ➡ 31.04
Here are some of our favorite takeaways from the episode (edited to be reading-friendly).Value of workOne of the things that get ignored in discussions with clients or in the clients' calculus and how they determine what they're getting for the bills they're paying is that there's never a very accurate way of measuring the value that was captured from the services, and what the outcome was.It's always what was that bill? That bill is high. Maybe you bought a company, in an M&A scenario, that had subsidiaries or locations in highly regulated, highly risky territories - where there's a ton more work to be done. It's not an apples-to-apples kind of company. So you don't look at what I got for the price I paid? You're just saying the bills are higher now.Price discriminationAb: How do you demonstrate that we're going to charge you X, and it's worth more than X to you as an outcome?Keith: Price discrimination is the short answer to that. Not everything is worth the same amount. By nature, and this is not any judgment or me trying to take a position on the actual value or the value of the practitioners doing this kind of work. But by nature, there's a spectrum of complexity, and the stuff that's really complex on the highly complex side tends to be more scarce. There is a more scarce supply of people who can do it.On the opposite side, on a more commoditized side or the more routine side - it's not as complex, and there are more options to avail yourself of to do that work.Client sophistication - apply the scalpel, not the hatchetMy particular role is to ensure that the firm is as profitable as possible and that we're making our clients as happy as possible in terms of service delivery models and getting the outcomes they want.The conversation with the client depends on the level of sophistication:I'd say architecting and implementing some of those solutions depends on the sophistication that the client or the person on the buy-side has. There are only so many levers in this business in terms of what I can do. It's all about service delivery models and the underlying economics. This isn't astrophysics. There are not huge, massively complex data jobs in most cases (there are some benefits to that in different scenarios).There are a couple of levers on who's going to do the work and how much they have to do, what's the cheapest way to do it, and what the outcome will be. How do those things correlate (the price to the product)? Having those conversations with people that understand that better is important.I've worked with several legal operations groups where they have the knowledge, the understanding, and the sophistication. Still, there's a gap in the level of influence they have over the in-house attorneys...Different sides of the table, same challenges:We have very similar challenges - in-house and the law firm side - as it relates to getting the lawyers to understand the economics, the process, and to e
Leading through a crisis with Alex Tsepko Leading teams during times of crisis presents a unique challenge. Many of which are multiplied when you are a startup and the team was only formed months ago. And then, overnight, everyone suddenly felt very fragile. It's a unique feeling and unique in a bad way because suddenly you have no idea what to do. And the feeling is that you're very lost.Yet, that is exactly the challenge that faced Alex Tsepko, CEO of Lawrina - a website that provides useful content and productivity tools for lawyers. The entire team for Lawrina was in Ukraine, and things changed overnight as the country was invaded. Lawrina CEO, Alex Tsepko, speaks about his experience leading a newly formed team through a sudden crisis - the invasion of Ukraine - and finding growth through a shared vision. In this episode, we cover (timestamps in parenthesis):
Introduction (0:20)
Ukraine as a hub for IT innovation (1:38)
Experiencing unexpected crisis as a young organization (3:22)
Leading through a crisis (6:08)
Finding growth through a shared vision (11:57)
Recognizing that it wasn't possible to continue doing anything the old way, Alex ensured that his team was safe and pivoted to continue working to execute their vision. The business went from a domestic play to having an international group with traffic growing 35%+ each month.As Alex shares, "it was not easy," but the team came together during a time when they felt fragile to build something they believed in.Alex Tsepko is the CEO of You can connect with Alex on LinkedIn.If you like the show, then I know you'll love the Fringe Legal newsletter which is full of interviews, articles, and reports to help Legal innovators like yourself learn how to put ideas into practice and find success. You can sign up for free at
Creativity in law firms with Dale Miller What role does creativity play in a law firm and legal practice?  "You can be creative in any industry and anything that you do. Creativity is a mindset. It's being open to new ideas, new trends that diversity of thought, as we mentioned, being willing to experiment and try things, seeing things through a different lens than people typically do. To me, that's what creativity really is. It doesn't mean you have to invent something new and be insanely innovative. It just means you can look at a lot of things that are out there and say, 'Hey, you know what? That's interesting. Maybe we can use that somehow.'"In this episode, we cover:
The role of creativity in law firms
The increased focus on pricing
Why firms are struggling with being client-centric
What will make future firms successful
Marketing as an underutilized superpower
Read the Fringe Legal newsletter which includes additional commentary on each of the topics. About Dale MillerDale Miller is a Business Development and Marketing strategist with 20 years of experience and expertise in professional services firms, the advertising industry, and technology startups. She has held Director of Marketing and Business Development positions at regional and international firms, in the legal and financial industries, leading strategy, content, business development, and strategic partnerships. Dale is currently a Practice Development Manager at Holland & Knight. Prior to her work in legal, Dale founded and ran businesses, including a marketing consultancy and her talent agency, Miller Creative Partners, which represented photographers and directors, and worked with national ad agencies and their blue-chip clients. She has served on the Board of Lawyers for the Creative Arts, and is an active member of Northwestern University’s Law and Technology Initiative.
The Future of Work with Matt Coatney Matt Coatney is a seasoned C-level product and technology executive, entrepreneur, advisor, author, and speaker with 25 years of experience helping businesses and technology work better together. He has led divisions and portfolios for large global corporations, co-founded three companies and advised several others, been an early-stage employee of two successful tech startups, advised dozens of business and technology professionals across all stages of company formation and growth, and launched over a dozen successful products.Episode content
The future of work ➡ 03.34
How would work be delivered in the future ➡ 04.52
Legal matters as projects ➡ 05.51
(Alternative) career paths for lawyers ➡ 07.36
The role of technology in the delivery of legal service ➡ 09.27
Why change now? ➡ 12.17
Disrupt the status quo ➡ 14.46
Are you profitable? Pricing analytics at law firms ➡ 15.59
Experience Management, BD, and contract analytics ➡ 17.41
Learning from adjacent industries ➡ 20.24
Making inclusion work in a hybrid world ➡ 32.13
Resources mentioned
The Human Cloud Book
Human Cloud Podcast
Joyce Tong Oelrich on law firms as a subscription business
Subscribe to Fringe Legal for deeper insights from each episode
Implementing emerging technologies with Leigh Snider Technology is a frequent topic of conversation. It comes up almost every single episode. And while it's fun to talk about amazing new tools or features, ultimately, you have to tie the tech back to the business strategy. Easy to say, difficult to execute.It's harder still when tracking and working with emerging technology, where there may not yet be a baseline for success. We tackle those points and so much more in the episode today.Episode content
What is IncuBaker  ➡ 2.46
Watching the market ➡ 4.04
Client needs ➡ 5.03
Tracking 500+ legal tech companies ➡  6.17
Tying tech to business objectives ➡ 7.29
A process-driven approach to technology selection ➡ 11.30
Working with Vendors ➡ 16.22
Working with emerging technologies ➡ 20.31
Validating ideas ➡ 23.46
Market trends ➡ 32.31
For more detailed notes visit
Disrupting lawyer training with antiCPD with Quddus Pourshafie On the podcast this week, I speak to Quddus Pourshafie, co-founder of antiCPD a new training business looking to flip the necessary evil of CPD on its head. They have a bold vision:Essentially, we want it to be the most AntiCPD CPD training you've ever seen. CPD is one of the least favorite activities of any lawyer, right? It's something that must be done, but no one particularly enjoys that period of time. Or if it's spread throughout the year most people tick it off. It's a checkbox item. And now that it's virtual and prerecorded people can freely fall asleep... So that's one aspect that we wanted to completely blow out the water.
How Legal Tech Innovation Can Drive Success in Your Firm with Azman Jaafar In this episode, Ab speaks with Azman Jaafar, Managing Partner and one of the founding members of RHTLaw Asia on how legal technology can drive success in a law firm.This episode is a special segment to the article "How Legal Tech Innovation Can Drive Success in Your Firm" which was published in the Singapore Law Gazette in October 2021.
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